Ya, silly religious people, jesus came to ABOLISH centralized religious authority and tell us we dont need to go through priests to get to god, the road to god is an inner path, but did we listen? NOPE we killed him instead, GJ people, god comes down to earth to see what its like and we kill him for it
Jesus did not come to abolish religious authority. He clearly ordained Peter to be the head of the church in Matthew 16:18–19 and at the end of the book of John.
Are you sure about that? Im pretty sure peter denied christ and said he didnt know him. Jesus said the road to god is an inner path, which means we dont need religious authorities, he spoke on 2 levels, in parables to the masses, who were not spiritually ready, and heart to heart with his disciples, whom he took on spiritual journeys.
1) Peter denies Christ in order to have compassion and mercy on the church. It was a predestined action in order to humble the leader of the early church. It was evil on Peter's account but God allowed such to happen in order for good to come about. Genesis 50:20
2) The Sabbath Day is still to be honored, which is going to church on the Sabbath Day.
3) Salvation is not a works based system but a grace based one. It is personal. However, you can only believe in the Gospel if you have heard the Gospel. Jesus addresses that at the end of Matthew addresses that. And Paul, who was ordained by God to speak for God, advocates the same in Romans 10
I have heard the gospel and i believe the true message is within it, but it has been corrupted with lies over the ages, i know youll bring up the dead scrolls and the original translations, but i do not trust those, i only trust the very core message of the bible, and not all of the other messages that have clouded it.
So our beliefs are not to far apart, which is good, im glad :)
You do know that Jesus said that He was the only way to heaven, correct? And He said that everyone was sinful, which includes your ability to distinguish truth from non-truth and the ability to make your way to heaven by your own merits.
What did he mean by he is the only way? to worship him? The only thing i would bow down to is god himself, and nothing else. Or did he mean to be like him and do the things he did and live the life he lived? He said we could become like him and do what he did, which is what i am going to be devoting my life to in a month, so ya :) trust me, my language may not say it, but i am a man of god
I do believe and trust jesus, hes an ascended master, and if he incarnated into a human being, he had to have been a simple human, just like everyone else, who realized his divine powers, or simply because he already held his knowledge of the spirit world when he was born, they only tell us we cant be perfect so they can control us easier ;)
We are all perfect beings, alot of us make mistakes, well, every single one of us does, but its up to us to learn from them and look ahead and fix what we can
Living without possessions, spreading only love, not starting conflict (i think the internet is exempt >.>)
I do believe in him, and i know i fall short in many ways, but it is the man who never learns from his mistakes that is imperfect, but that is only for the time being, we all have the power to change our ways, we cant be forced to though, we have to be willing to be able to do it
If we are all perfect beings then how do we make mistakes?
Believe that Jesus came to save you from Hell and the wrath of the Father and trust in Him to save you and you will be saved. If you don't believe this statement, then you do not believe.
Well we have to learn that we are perfect, time is meaningless, it is only the now that matters, and if you are not perfect right now, then you can be perfect right now.
And let me counteract you with THIS statement: "Test yourself, to see if you are of the faith. Realize Christ is within ALL beings, unless of course, you fail the test?"
We are all perfect. At least, i strive to see perfection in everyone, and bring it out in them.
If we are perfect then how do we not know we are perfect?
You do realize that the verse you are referring to is talking about Christians... who believe. And no where in there does it say, "All." You have added in what you want to be in 2 Corinthians 13:5
we dont know we are perfect because of our ego, our persona, our animal instincts, our subconscious, what others think of us, what we think others think of us, all these little "voices" that tell us who we are is not who we are, you must learn to silence these true demons to realize you are, at your very core, a perfect being.
And there is so many different variations of that passage, that im just gonna leave it at that.
So our ego, persona, and animal instincts, which are apart of our "selves," are perfect because we are perfect. But they tell us that we aren't perfect, which is a lie, which is not perfect. So how are we perfect again?
None of the interpretations have "ALL" in it, except maybe your own.
But they are not our true selves, they only make us believe what we are, but that does not mean we are them. They are the "chattering monkey mind" You must learn to transcend these and look at yourself within, to realize who you truly are, and i apologize for adding all beings, but the other verses say "examine yourselves, know that jesus christ lives within you" Is basically the same exact thing as christ living in all beings. Which he does reside in all of us. And when you transcend all of the ego, persona, and animal instincts, you will find what it speaks of.
however, the only way to be good is to believe in Him
There are plenty of people who lack belief in god that are good people....even some people of other religions that believe in different gods or lack belief in gods entirely like Buddhists.
Are you implying that everyone who does not believe in god is a bad person?
No one is good. There is no such thing as genuine altruism. Even our good deeds are like filthy rags compared to God. Christians are the only ones who have been cleansed by God to be seen as good, by God. Everyone else is bad. Read the beatitudes, in which Christ says, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted." The word used here in Greek is total depravity as in even our hearts are evil, Jeremiah 17:9. This is the fundamental differing point between Christians and atheists. Christians realize that no one is good not even themselves, even when they think they are doing good. No one is good! This can relate to Socrates.... about how he was considered the wisest man in Athens because he was the only one who understood that he was not knowledgeable. Everyone thinks they are good, but in reality no one is.
No one is good. There is no such thing as genuine altruism. Even our good deeds are like filthy rags compared to God. Christians are the only ones who have been cleansed by God to be seen as good, by God. Everyone else is bad.
What a bigoted statement, and logically inconsistent at that. First you say no one is good, then you say that only Christians have been cleansed by god to be seen as good and that anyone else is bad.
Reading the beatitudes, in no way adds credibility to your point. Neither does any verse in the bible.
You changed your definition of good. First it was genuine altruism, then you changed it to only if you're a christian are you good.
There can be people with varying degrees of good and bad. To say that everyone who is not a christian is bad, is bigotry.
I never changed my point. Read through it again. I'm saying that no one does good. The only good people are seen as good even though they are not.
I know. Your point stayed true to being bigoted. That everyone is bad, and that only christians are the ones who are viewed as good by god.
It doesn't matter which beatitude you cite, it offers no credibility to your point. I can create a religion and make a book that goes along with it, and then every time someone has a question I can refer them to the book as proof of its truthness. This is how silly quoting scripture is.
Thats pretty low of a christian to say, cheristians are no different than anyone else, bigotry is this: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. Everyone else who isnt a christian is automatically bad and youre all good? Thats just stupid, beliefs dont make you a good person, its acts of doing good and treating others well, no matter WHAT.
You fail in this aspect, im not christian yet im a pretty good guy nowadays, ive had my redemption and all i can tell you is if thats how you think, saying everyone else is bad for not being a christian, then you are truly brainwashed, without even realizing it.
You can tell me and everyone else here we wont be saved because we dont worship jesus as an idol, but its not the messenger who is to be worshipped, its the message, and that message is love, and it looks like you lack of it
You have missed the entire point. I'm saying that no one is good. No one is good, including Christians! Christians are just the ones who are seen by God to be good. We are all bound to this body. However, Christians are the only ones who are saved because of Christ's death on the cross, we too have died to sin. We are willing to do good, but because our flesh, which is bound to sin, we are entrapped to do evil.
I still do not see how it is "low of a Christian" to say what the Bible says.
And how have I not loved yall? I have proclaimed that the way and the truth and the life is found through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, that even through our sin, which most assuredly brings death, we are dead to sin because of our God's wonderful mercy and grace and love! No person can begin to trust in God if they already trust in themselves. I tell you this, the only way for a man to enter into the kingdom of heaven is for him to deny himself and to take up his cross and follow the Lord. Praise God for His mercy and grace, that even though we are bound to sin, we too may live again through the death of our Lord Jesus Christ! Amen!
And how have I not loved yall? I have proclaimed that the way and the truth and the life is found through Satan our Lord and Savior, that even through our sin, which most assuredly brings death, we are dead to sin because of the Dark One's wonderful mercy and grace and love! No person can begin to trust in The Darkest Fiend if they already trust in themselves. I tell you this, the only way for a man to enter into the kingdom of hell is for him to deny himself and to take up his cross and follow the Lord. Praise Lucifer for His mercy and grace, that even though we are bound to sin, we too may live again through the death of our Lord Satan! Amen!
If God sees Christians as good, and you said that no one is good, how does this make sense?
I don't know about you, but I don't consider myself entrapped to do evil. There are varying degrees of good and bad in people. Simply being a human does not mean you are destined to do evil deeds. You make it sound as if the simple act of existing as a human is totally evil and wrong and that we must be saved by what is likely a fictitious deity.
But you just told me that only christians are good and everyone else is bad, you keep contradicting yourself. And i thought the jews were gods chosen people? See this is why i dont trust all of the bible
You havent loved all because you dont accept other peoples views and beliefs, and thus it makes that person feel as if they are going to be doomed to hell. You do not know this, but using spiritual logic (ya i made that up, who cares) Thats not good at all to do, god wants us all to be unique but only if we follow exactly what a book tells us to do? The book was written by the flesh, which you yourself said is entrapped to do evil.
I follow jesus completely, like srom said, hes a follower of jesus and not christianity (although he does still listen to the bible) To say you must put all of your trust into god makes no sense because god created us all to be unique, but to be kind and compassionate of one another, not by dissing someone elses beliefs, i may be dissing your beliefs, but thats only because they impede upon everyone else. Being a good, kind person who does acts of kindness out of the good of his heart and not for the good of his book, is the true way to god.
You do know that those verses are intended to show that everyone is morally imperfect, correct? The Greek word for poor is that of a beggar, and you have excluded "spirit," which is a claim to spiritual begging for righteousness. Hungry for righteousness too is a claim to not being able to find righteousness unless given to him by God, because we are beggars. Weeping too is a claim to not being able to be good. You are weeping that you can't be righteous and you mourn over your sins. All these verses are claims to the total depravity of man. Isaiah 57:15-19
No, thats not what ANY of it means, it means those who have been through hell, literally, treated like shit their whole lives and have never had any friends, and who have lived in the streets and still have helped those around them are the true souls of gods, to be stripped of everything you have but still be thankful to have god in your life, or the spirit in your life, is what it means, i have cried because i have been made to cry, i have been poor because i have had everything taken from me, and i can now laugh because all you need in life is spirit.
They may be the total depravity of man, but it is the man who is able to still give to others while he has nothing is which it is referring to
Okay, I'm done arguing with you.... We can banter over what the literal Greek translation is all night but here's the thing... don't pick and choose which Bible verses you want to follow and not follow. I have shared the Gospel with you... you can either accept it or reject it.... I would hope that you would accept it... but if you don't then so be it... its the will of the Lord
The reason i dont trust the bible, is because im left handed and left handed people have always been thought to be "satanic" throughout history, and have been persecuted as going on the "left handed path headed straight towards the devil and is soooooo evil" were not satanic, were just freethinkers, theres nothing evil about it, do you honestly believe that your god, who is so high and mighty above everything, honestly limits his view of morality to a human standard of it?
I highly doubt it, like ive said before i spread love, and positivity, if i get sent to hell for that, then so be it, ive already accepted that fate, but i dont think thats the case.
I haven't contradicted myself. You may think I have... but on contextual communication I haven't. The Jews are not God's chosen people. His elect are God's chosen people, which included some Jews. The Gentiles were promised salvation through Christ as well. We are all evil. Christians are the only ones that are seen by God as good. Our spirit is willing to do good, that which is godly and righteous, but our flesh is too weak. Everyone is sinful and cannot do good.
So do I have to accept Hitler's beliefs in order to love him? Do I have to accept the belief that we should willingly kill every fetus in order to ensure population control? I have a friend who believes this... but I love him. He is an atheist and he full well knows that I think he is going to hell. And people need to feel as if they are going to hell, because otherwise, why would anyone believe? If no one was going to hell then there would be no point in having a savior.
The Bible was God breathed. Christians are the only ones who have the Holy Spirit within them... that is to say that we have God with us. We are trapped by sin in our bodies but God is with us in soul. He allowed the Apostles to write His words without error, through the Holy Spirit. This is why prophetic powers and performing miracles was a necessity. It showed that the God was working through the physical bodies of humans.
True kindness and love is telling people that Christ has come to save them from the wrath of God! Letting people have their own beliefs is a tool used by Satan to keep people living in the darkness that they have created. How much hate does it take to not tell someone that a truck is hurdling their way? How much hate does it take to let someone willfully remain ignorant because they don't want to believe a truck is there? How much hate does it take to not push that person out of the way so that they are safe? If you think letting someone remain ignorant of that truck is love... you've got one coming yourself.
Obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one's own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.
That's the definition of being bigoted. I said that what you were saying is just a bigoted opinion. You look down upon people who do not believe in your christian faith, and believe yourself and other christians to be morally superior.
In no way do I see myself superior to anyone else. If I claimed that I was superior to someone else then my religion would be works based, not faith based. Like I said, we are all evil. That is the basis for Christianity, not that we are better than anyone. For Christ came not to save the righteous but the unrighteous.
Christians are the only ones who have been cleansed by God to be seen as good, by God. Everyone else is bad.
It's in your post above. You are saying that only Christians are seen as good by God, and that everyone else is bad. You believe Christians to be morally superior to non Christians.
It is completely contextual. God sees everyone who is not a believer in Christ as evil... that is why I said, "to be seen as good," not that we actually are. In no way am I saying that I am superior to another person.
Christianity was not a religion at the time. The only religion at the time that involved the concept of God (a.k.a. Allah) as Jews, Christians, and Muslims know today was Judaism. Judaism involved a lot of teachings (torah) that Jesus disputed. Take, for example, "An eye for an eye". This was a Jewish teaching, and Jesus directly disputed it, basically saying suck it up Gandhi style and love 'em anyway.
The Church, when mentioned in the bible, refers to the entire christian community. There wasn't a Church, as in the building dedicated to the christian teachings, until a little while later after Jesus died when the religion itself was established. Islam came around a bit after that (Around 622 AD/CE).
I have a love/hate relationship when it comes to you Joe.
I don't know how many times I've been on the Debate feed and seen a title that looks interesting, clicked on it, and see you're the creator of the debate. From that moment on, I know nothing can be taken seriously in this playing field.
I try to create debates that people can take seriously, if they wish, or poke fun of. The debates are not for me. Once I create a debate and put in my two cents on one side or the other, sometimes both sides, I rarely go back to argue with people. I just let them make up their mind as to how they approach the debate (as a serious debate or as a joke) and let them work through their thought process with the others.
If this debate looks interesting, as a serious debate, then by all means treat it as such. I'm not going to argue with you but someone else might ;)
I don't really think he cares so much about the other religions. I mean, he gives people a choice. Either you believe in him and his Father's words, or you don't.
