do you understand what mecca is. its is a sacred place built to worship god how would you feel if someone flew a plane into your church? maybe some of you should stop listening to what cnn and the government say about islam and actually do some research. not only would you find that not one muslim body was found in the reckage of 911 but also that george bush was one of the largest contributers to 911. there is also proof that the bush and bin-laden families have been friends dating back to when bush senior was in office. and bush jr had lunch with the bin-laden family the day before 911. did u ever stop and think huh? what did both bush junior and senior do while in office. create wars in some part of the midlle east. huh wonder why well it could be the fact that the bush family is sitting on one of the biggest oil fortunes in the u.s.
Wrong, it is a city which existed before Islam and Mohammed.
how would you feel if someone flew a plane into your church?
I don't go to church.
maybe some of you should stop listening to what cnn
I don't watch CNN.
and the government say about islam
If you bothered to find out who I am rather than judge me, you'd see that I am a conspiratologist and very paranoid. In a nutshell: I do not trust government.
nd actually do some research.
I have.
not only would you find that not one muslim body was found in the reckage of 911 but also that george bush was one of the largest contributers to 911.
You know what, I've never had complete belief in this conspiracy theory. I've argued for it, but I'm still not totally convinced.
there is also proof
Evidence, not proof.
that the bush and bin-laden families have been friends dating back to when bush senior was in office.
Funny, throughout all of my readings, I've never found this one.
and bush jr had lunch with the bin-laden family the day before 911.
No evidence.
did u ever stop and think huh?
Yes, I do think. Obviously far more than do you.
what did both bush junior and senior do while in office.
Acting like idiots?
create wars in some part of the midlle east.
So?
huh wonder why well it could be the fact that the bush family is sitting on one of the biggest oil fortunes in the u.s.
Why not go back to the roots of the "Oil Conspiracy"? We used to use hemp oil, and we were much better off.
Everything I needed to know about life I learned in kindergarten. And there I learned that people should treat other people the way they like to be treated. Well...., now we know how they like to be treated so let's give them an extremely warm welcome ;)
New Yorkers should allow the mosque to be built,what really is a good reason to not have it built? There is none,um hello people See: U.S. Constitution freedom of religion. Many people will fire back at me and say "well it isn't morally right and look at what the Muslims did to us on 9/11". To be honest,that is a relatively weak argument because history shows that American has not always had the same allies it has now. Japan,one of America's biggest allies to date used to be one of America's biggest enemies. But what did we learn to do? We learned to make amends with them and move on from the past,perhaps we should try doing the same thing for the Muslims.
They should but they wont at least not New Yorkers that share the view of the majority of New Yorkers. The majority of New Yorkers are spineless and love this multicultural BS almost as much as us Canadians.
Let me get this straight. The citizens of New York -the people MOST AFFECTED by the attack of 9/1- are willing to look past petty stereotypes and realize that the people who bombed the towers have no relation to the mosque?
They are mature enough to put the constitution's promise of religious freedom before their own feelings, and not hold a grudge against their fellow Americans, Muslim or otherwise?
It's more like...., stand up for your religion, Islam. Be very vocal about what your religion considers acceptable and what it does not consider acceptable. So far, I haven't heard much about the outrage Muslims feel towards 9/11. I haven't heard much about them denouncing terrorism. If they were actively preaching against terrorism, then I would be OK with their mosque. But maybe, just maybe, the liberal media is not reporting on their active denunciation of terrorism ;)
The problem is, you're still treating every member of Islam as identical. The taliban-run governments may not be particularly sorry, but individual muslims - the ones afraid to talk publicly lest their families be hung in the streets - might be less joyful.
And that's ignoring the muslims living in America - many of whom have already spoken out about how disgusted they are at their fellow muslims.
They've already spoken out. You just haven't been listening.
If it's really that much, I should have heard about it by now. But maybe, just maybe, I haven't looked hard enough. Why don't you post what they have said, since, apparently you have and must (therefore) know where to look to find it ;)
Unfortunately, the leadership in islam-run theocracies have their heads so far up their asses that they can smell their food before they can taste it. There's no way any denunciation would escape the censors or the public outcry.
Let me clarify something here. I don't particularly like islam. The muslim rule in the middle east is a backwards, repressive fuckup of a system.
But over here? Muslim Americans have every right you or I do. And I would rather die than see that right revoked, because every step we take away from religious freedom with no exceptions is another step towards the backwards, repressive fuckup that is a theocratic state.
See, fighting fire with fire would be great if we didn't have to burn the constitution to get there.
Because the reasons behind us not wanting this one mosque are, for the most part, grounded in xenophobia and a lack of understanding of the term "isolated incident."
Granted, your motives in particular strike now me as more of protecting new yorkers from an offense that doesn't exist. Keep in mind that I wrote my original response when you had said nothing but "Fight fire with fire", which you have to admit made you look like a xenophobic redneck back when I had nothing else to go on.
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"Your arrogancy does not entitle you to act like a jackass."
You spelled anonymity wrong. And yes, yes it does.
The reason for not wanting this one mosque in this one place is not grounded in xenophobia. If it was, then we would disallow every mosque everywhere in the U.S.A.
The reason for not wanting this one mosque in this one place is grounded on the emotions that memory still evokes. We want to remember the "good" emotions (sadness, etc.) and forget the "bad" emotions (anger, etc.).
The constitution allows for religious freedom. Not allowing one mosque to be built in one particular area does not violate anyone's religious freedom. Some people erroneously believe that the constitution allows people to do whatever the hell they want and that is just not the case.
"We want 9/11 to be remembered and the victims to be honored."
That's wonderful. So do I.
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"9/11 never happened? Try explaining what you said to the victims families."
You're putting words in my mouth. The "offense that doesn't exist" is your assumption that the victims' families will be outraged by a community center two blocks away. You're projecting your own stereotypes and righteous indignation on people who understand the situation better than you do.
I'm glad we agree on that count. It'd be a shame for the people who had their families killed by terrorists to also have to watch their country cave to the bullying and fear that the extremists were attempting to spread.
Terrorists don't hate buildings; they want to cause fear. They want to break us down. When we lash out at our own citizens, when we exchange our freedom for the illusion of security, we're giving them what they want.
So here's where I stand: I don't particularly want the goddamn mosque.
I wish it had never been planned.
I wish whoever planned it had given it more thought and chosen a different location.
I wish the media hadn't picked up on it to gain a few extra viewers, wish they hadn't single handedly turned it into the spectacle that it has become.
But now that it's become a matter of breaking the law over a perceived insult - something the center was never meant to be-?
Now that ill-informed pundits are using it as a weapon, caring more about the publicity their wild statements will gain them than the actual victims?
Now I will be pretty fucking pissed if this bullying forces the mosque down.
To me, this was a local issue that got turned into a constitutional issue after it got way too much attention.
Right. The owners of the building should move its location of their own free will. Otherwise it means nothing if government officials force them to move it. If they move it of their own free will, then they would be sending a strong message that they truly mean goodwill towards us. But if they don't move it of their own free will, then the fringe radical American few should torch it to send a strong message back that we really find their mosque at ground zero, and their handling of the situation, extremely offensive and that we won't stand for it ;)
I know! And then what we should do is go burn down any Christian churches or community centers around Waco and around the Oklahoma City bombing. Pay back's a bitch ._.
That's such a good idea because this whole fighting over religious symbolism works so well in the middle east and has for thousands of years. Why don't we just Jihad... er I mean crusade against all Muslims?
Never mind that 600,000 Muslims already live perfectly peaceful lives throughout NYC. Never mind that Rauf (the one in charge of this community center) has been praised by both the Bush and Obama administration for his work in bringing all religious sects together. Never mind that dozens of Muslims were actually killed in the 9/11 attack.
Never mind that our Constitution protects every religion, including Muslims.
All of you on the other side are the exact reason I hate Christians so much. Seriously I do. Because the second you have any excuse you act absolutely no differenty than any radical Muslim. If there were ever a Jesus he would be for the Community Center being built there from everything I've read of the fictional character.
Well..., it seems like we are more alike than not alike. I say that if we can't differentiate between them, then kill them all and let God sort them out. That's his job anyways ;)
Never mind that our Constitution protects every religion, including Muslims.
Joe did not state that the government ought to destroy the building, but rather private individuals. Obviously they'd be breaking the law, but so did those who destroyed the World Trade Centers.
That's not very christian like. I am christian, and i do not like the idea of the mosque being built, but i wouldn't torch it. Using the christian point of view, you should respect others religions even if you dont like them.
Let's see, um, nooooooooooooo. The whole point of the Mosque is to extend peace with the Islamic people; To show Ethnic/Religious tolerance. Burning it down, what, seriously? We're not in the 1800s anymore.
The whole point of the Mosque is to extend peace with the Islamic people
If they really wanted to show goodwill, then they would find some other way after realizing that the method they chose was being perceived as offensive.
Think about this, some drunk kills you mother in a car wreck. He feels bad and he wants to make you feel good. So he says, "At least she's with God now." But you are still hurt and angry by the whole incident so you tell him that it didn't have to be that way had he not been drunk. After realizing that his comment backfired, if he was truly sorry, he would come back and say, "I'm sorry." He would not say, "I'm just trying to extend peace and you are being ungracious."
You don't extend peace by trying to force your version of it down their throats. You extend peace by being respectful and tolerant of the other person's version of peace. We are not being intolerant of Muslims by not wanting this one mosque in this one part of town. They are being intolerant of our hurt feelings. There are other ways for them to extend peace and goodwill. Forcing people to accept a mosque in a place that people view as offensive is not the way to go about extending goodwill and peace.
I don't claim to know their intentions for wanting this one mosque in this one place, but I do know that you cannot claim to know their intentions either ;)
I'm confused. How can Conservatives call Liberals out for harping on Political Correctness on this one? Isn't the entire point of opposing it because "it's offensive?"
I dunno, could be the horrendously, misconceived, and distorted double-standard here. Maybe I'm just crazy like all the other Liberals who hate America.
While I believe the mosque should not be located on or near the new Trade Center, I do not believe in burning it down.
While I believe in all personal freedoms, I also believe there are principals that must be upheld. This is one of them. In no way should the mosque be allowed to be established in the proposed location. This would be a slap in the face of every American. A major atrocity took place in our country and at that location and letting someone create a mosque there is deplorable.
What this does show is the liberal beliefs that are in control of this country and especially the northeast. 3,000 Americans were killed in a matter of seconds in the name of muslim (sic) jihad and our powers that be will just allow them to create something in the ashes of our disaster? Sad much like many other decisions made in this country.