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Joe_Cavalry All Day Every Day


Debate Info

9
13
True Wait...., what...., no!
Debate Score:22
Arguments:15
Total Votes:26
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 True (9)
 
 Wait...., what...., no! (6)

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The founding fathers never intended the U.S. to be a secular nation

True

Side Score: 9
VS.

Wait...., what...., no!

Side Score: 13

The founding fathers never intended the U.S. to be a secular nation

They intended the U.S. to be a country without fags. But we failed them.

Side: True
1 point

The American founding fathers were very divided on many things. Some of the founding fathers such as Alexander Hamilton wanted this nation to become a Kingdom while others like Thomas Jefferson wanted the United States to become a Republic. Religion was no exception. While there was secular founding fathers like Thomas Paine, I think it is fair to say that a majority of them were followers of some form of Christianity. If by secular you mean separation of church and state then yes they intended it to be a secular nation. If you mean secular as in secular culturally then I would assume many of them would oppose it.

Side: True

I meant the second one. ; )

Side: True

There are over 250 men that are considered Founding Fathers. Less than ten would not fit the Christian beliefs. Thomas Paine was up and down, the only one that could be considered a Deist. Franklin claimed to be a Deist as a 15 year old, but he said that did not last long. If you look at his creed and his speech made at the constitutional convention calling for prayer there is no way he is a Deist. He does not fit the Biblical definition of Christian, but he did believe in God and God was in control of our Country.

His creed says" You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed:

I believe in one God, the creator of the universe, that he governs by his providence, that he ought to be worshipped, that the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children, that the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

In his speech he said "In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered."

A Deist does not believe God hears or answers prayer.

He also said "All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel:"

He goes on to suggest prayer in congress every morning. Therefore we have religion in Government.

Jefferson Attended Church in the capitol for his whole term as president. He had the Marine Corps band play for the church services. He gave money to get the gospel to the Indians.

Now, that is two founders with religion in Government.

In July of 1789 in a letter to the Directors of the Society of the United Brethren for Propagation the Gospel amongthe Heathen, George Washington committed that government should "Co-operate, as far as the circumstances may conveniently admit, with the disinterested endeavors of your Society to civilize and Christianize the Savages of the Wilderness"

Three founders wanting Government involved in Christianity.

John Adams said "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: "

Four Founders

John Jay said "“"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."  (October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay)

that is now Five founders.

Richard Basset signed the Constitution, helped write the Delaware State Constitution. It says in Article 22 that all elected officials must take this oath "I,do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration"

Six Founders

Gunning Bedford another signer was a Delegate from Delaware and would have had to take the same oath.

Seven founders

John Hancock called for the american people to "humble themselves before God on account of their sins, for He hath been pleased in His righteous judgement to suffer a great calamity to befall us, as the present controversy between Great Britain and the Colonies. And to implore the Divine Blessing upon us, that by the ssistance of His grace, we may be enabled to reform whatever is amiss among us, that so god may be pleased to continue to us the blessings we enjoy, and remove the tokens of His displeasure,..."

Another founder using religion in Government.

From 1776 to 1815 Congress called for numerous days of Prayer and Fasting as a Nation.

Side: True
-1 points

All I can say is, "In God We Trust"

Although I say that mainly to piss off the atheists ;)

Side: True
TheAnarchy(41) Disputed
4 points

"In God we Trust" wasn't added to American currency until the 1860's. More than 80 years after the Declaration of Independence was signed. And in case you are also fond of the "Pledge Argument", "Under God" wasn't added until 1954.

Side: Wait...., what...., no!

What I am saying is that the founding fathers did not have a problem with religion.

Side: True
Bohemian(3860) Disputed
3 points

What does that have to do with what the founding fathers wanted? The pledge of allegiance was not recited until 1892.....that's 116 years AFTER the nation was founded. All the constitutional framers were long dead by that time. Even so, the pledge as it was originally written never included the phrase "In God we trust".

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see the pledge as it was originally written: http://www.fred.net/tds/icons/pledge.jpg

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If all you can say is a phrase written in 1954, to support what the framers wanted in 1776, then your argument is in trouble.

Side: Wait...., what...., no!

What I am saying is that the founding fathers did not have a problem with religion.

Side: True
2 points

Quite obviously false. The founding fathers themselves were not christian nor very religious in any sense of the word.

Side: Wait...., what...., no!
2 points

I think the founding fathers intended this to be a nation of principles governed by the constitution. The only thing that they didn't predict were liberals and people turning their backs on our principles in the name of "progress".

Side: Wait...., what...., no!