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Joe_Cavalry All Day Every Day


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Debate Score:81
Arguments:61
Total Votes:83
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 What made this country great? (61)

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joecavalry(40163) pic



What made this country great?

The people who came to this country were hard workers.  Think about it, you leave everything behind and you go to a new country.  A backwards country where you can only make it if you know how to build a log cabin, hunt, fish, farm and defend yourself from the indiginous population.  The people that came here did not come here to collect welfare and live off the labor of others.  At least not until slavery.

Slavers live off the labor of others, directly.  People who live off the labor of others sickens me.

But then America took a turn for the better and finally abolished slavery.  Now you either live off your own labor or you pay for that labor to get done.  This country became very rich.  So it was easier to justify some people to live off the labor of others.  Namely poor people.  They are poor, the rest have the means and so welfare was started. 

That's when the nation started down the wrong path again.  Here's the thing, no matter how poor you are, you should still be able and qualified to do something.  You shouldn't just get a check without having done something first.  Even most handicap people can lick a stamp and put it on an envelope.  It really doesn't matter what they do as long as they do something.  You shouldn't be allowed to sit on your ass at home just waiting for your next check to arrieve in the mail.  Why?  Because then more and more people will want to go on the gravy train to the point where there's enough of them to demand more and more.  Think about the rampant sense of entitlement in this country.  Everything is a right.

People are starting to sense that there's something wrong with this country.  They are starting to go back and relearn the lessons of our forefathers.  Maybe we'll be able to get this nation back on track before the end of the lne.

 

Add New Argument
4 points

- Open Mindedness (separation of church and state, freedom of religion, etc.)

- Liberty

- The people who actually cared about America instead of blindly proclaiming it's greatness (Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Ben Franklin, etc.).

- The abolition of slavery and the industrial revolution.

- The history of flight.

- The Space Race

- Nothing after that... and I always wonder why. When I look back into these history books I'm always like "Where did these people go?". The ones that were inventing things that were useful, and good. The assembly line was an American invention, the vertically integrated business, the refrigerator, the airplane, the telephone, the light bulb, the computer... the microwave, the television if it's worth mentioning...

What happened? If you notice, most of the things invented in the late 1800's, that were sold and bought, were things like Sewing machines, tractors, tools... anything that would be used to help the society as a whole. They were products that increased capital, things that people needed in order to work.

I think that's something that America has lost touch with. We used to be a nation of working people. Now, with the supermarket, our backwards food industry, microwave, televisions, dvd players, cell phones, TONS OF DRUGS, omniscient mainstream media... our stupid politics (liberal vs conservative, hurr durr), and our overly dictating and distracting faith systems, like mega churches and their involvement in politics and society...

We feel like we don't need to work anymore. We feel like we don't need to push boundaries anymore, because the people that we buy shit from will just do it for us, eventually, and we'll pay for whatever they come up with for doing it.

Side: Hard Work
2 points

Great points. My opinion of the US is in general so low I am occasionnally shocked at myself. It does have some great things going for it, and some amazingly good people and events in its history.

I have to admit I am confused by your point:

- The people who actually cared about America instead of blindly proclaiming it's greatness (Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Ben Franklin, etc.).

It reads as if you're stating that Mr Jefferson only blindly proclaimed its greatness? Shurely shome mishtake?

I think there are great things happening in the US (within living memory - which is a bloody short amount of time): space exploration, WWII, which is a serious candidate for the most defining good vs bad event in human history, the genome project, microchips etc, etc.

Saying that nothing's happening now is jumping the gun, it's too early to say what will be the "great" things going forward. I personally think gene research, but like I said it's too early to tell.

Side: Hard Work
2 points

I'd say the people behind the Civil rights movement were pretty rad too. Anybody who stands up against injustice is pretty awesome.

Dead-on: "Now, with the supermarket, our backwards food industry, microwave, televisions, dvd players, cell phones, TONS OF DRUGS, omniscient mainstream media... our stupid politics (liberal vs conservative, hurr durr), and our overly dictating and distracting faith systems, like mega churches and their involvement in politics and society... We feel like we don't need to work anymore."

Side: Hard Work
2 points

Brilliant arguements as always Bradford.

I believe the Internet would be the most recent claim to greatness as well. It's our invention, and all the major players in computer innovation are American (google, microsoft, apple) of course the Japanese are right there too, with Sony, but I think it's safe to say it's an American invention. Perhaps it's too recent to see what a great contribution to society it is though.

Taking a pesimistic point of view too though,

I think it's important to realize another big part of our success early on was land. Lots and lots of completely untapped resources. And of course that can never last forever.

But your second point is the most telling.

There is/was a certain American attitude of independance, pride, coupled with acceptance and curiosity. This exemplified by our forefathers.

But, it seems much of the acceptance and curiosity part of that equation has fallen on the wayside at least for many.

Side: Hard Work
4 points

Mostly true, and my view point here is sort of pessimistic, but I feel it's still valid on it's own.

The internet has potential but I can easily see it running into problems in the future. Not just problems that we can get over, but problems that have poorly conceived solutions that people will just accept, as a way of life. Just as television was free, and now it's $30 or something for a select few channels. It's no longer a free roaming place for the conscious mind, it's a sort of Mall that has rules and regulations like every other place in the world. Making duplicates of information is now theft, things can be hidden, there are places that we cannot go, even just for information (I'm not talking about porn).

The internet is a good thing, now, but in the future I cannot tell. So is it's beginning good if it ultimately condemns people in the end... I would say the television was a good thing, but look at it now, it's a monster. A complete waste of time, so that you can watch animals in africa, instead of studying them yourself if you have the balls... you can get news from a network like Fox or any other alphabet network instead of being there when shit goes down, or reading a paper, or talking to people who have been effected by events recapped in the "news"...

Society is debased and no one is asking why. It's as if people are too lazy, to unmotivated to care about the functioning parts in society that make their lives possible. Ask someone in the city what they think about the soil in Iowa or Missouri, they'll look at you like you're a fucking retard, but they're the ones eating from the soil in Iowa! They just don't care anymore, no one cares about almost anything. More people care about Lost or whatever's on the T.V. these days than anything about soil at all, and it's important shit. People look at work as if it's evil, like their boss is evil, and the CEO of their corporation is evil and everything that they stand for as a business is evil... and that's ALL they do, just look at it and complain until they can escape it and it's all behind them... until they have a new job to complain about, they won't need to worry about that other wicked business.

Try making your own business, you will look evil too, because when you're at work your job isn't to be a philanthropist, it's to get something in exchange for something else. People see that as evil too, you see? If you don't just give something to me, you're fucking evil! >:O

People seem to have forgotten, or never learned these things. No one feels privileged, they feel like someone, somewhere OWES them. This is a problem in America, I see it every day. I can list a million things here, that people have opinions about but lack any knowledge of, whatsoever...

I'll spare us though, because you never asked and I'm rambling on the internet.

Side: Hard Work
xaeon(1095) Disputed
1 point

"I believe the Internet would be the most recent claim to greatness as well. It's our invention, and all the major players in computer innovation are American (google, microsoft, apple)"

The internet would be absolutely nothing without the invention of the world wide web by Tim Berners Lee, who was English.

Side: Hard Work
Banshee(288) Disputed
1 point

I'm not sure its so simple as people feeling that they "don't need to work." I think it may be symptomatic of a much more serious cultural malaise whereby people, especially younger people, look at the mess of problems facing the world that have been caused largely by our own excesses and that they don't know how to fix, the fairly consistent economic decline of the country, the corporate ladders they aren't that interested in climbing, and the overall failure of the "American Dream", and they say f--k it, because they no longer have a sense that pursuit of that path will lead them to any fulfillment or security. I don't think it's necessarily a lack of interest or will, but a lack of goals and direction, that has de-railed us.

Side: hmm
Bradf0rd(1431) Disputed
1 point

"I don't think it's necessarily a lack of interest of will, but a lack of goals and direction, that has de-railed us."

If this is true to you, where should our youth be getting their direction? What should be their source of inspiration?

Side: hmm
2 points

Your Bill of Rights. Which at the time was an incredibly liberal piece of legislation. Sadly let down by dogmatic refusal to alter parts of it ever since.

Side: bill of rights
2 points

Think about the rampant sense of entitlement in this country. Everything is a right.

Everything? There are some serious rights that are NOT provided to citizens. Marriage, for example.

Anyway, what made this country great was 1-a lack of religious affiliation in its founding, 2-people who were able to come together in spite of their differences, and 3-ideals about personal liberty. Oh and 4-people who were willing to stand up and fight against things that were unfair and unjust

Side: Not hard work
ThePyg(6738) Disputed
2 points

1. Finding a Nation takes some hard work, especially if you aren't guided by God.

2. Those people came together and used hard work to fight off the Indians.

3. It took hard work to come up with an efficient Constitution.

4. Fighting against an entire empire when you're just a farmer with a home made musket seems like hard work to me.

So yeah, if that's what makes our country great, hard work had everything to do with it. These people were oppressed, out numbered and looking to create an ENTIRE nation. To do so against all odds takes massive hard work. Something the modern American could probably never do (God forbid you tell them to start a fire let alone fight the entire country of England).

Side: Hard Work
phuqster(123) Disputed
1 point

I think it's about what is meant by "hard work". Really you could say everything takes hard work, making a bad constitution could take hard work, being guided by god, hiding from Indians, working and being taxed by a colonial/punitive power (no one's going to fight for independence if you've got an easy life already). So, again, hard work does not by itself make a nation great.

Side: Hard Work
2 points

"The people who came to this country were hard workers."

But the people who founded it were slaveowners. All the southern-state delegates to the Constitutional Convention were slaveowners. So were Washington, Madison, and Jefferson. "Hands off slavery" was a fundamental compromise to getting the Constitution ratified. And every single one of the Founding Fathers had a big fat bunch of money and an equally big fat bunch of land.

"But then America took a turn for the better and finally abolished slavery."

And, immediately replaced it with an aggressively laissez-faire system rooted in the notion that white Anglo-descended males were naturally superior to everybody else and should therefore be afforded the best opportunities whereas blacks and immigrants could work for whatever the hell we feel like paying them, thank you very much -- an approach to economic legislation that was not abandoned until the Great Depression forced a different policy approach and started authorizing things like a minimum wage.

Side: Not hard work
2 points

“Our endless appeals system. Wait, you’re not writing down what I just said, are you?

. . . A, Does America have the best government in the world? And B, what constitutes the best government? Is it crime, poverty, literacy? Because if so, America is definitely not best, perhaps not even better than most. We do have a very entertaining government . . .

Are you familiar with the term BS? BS, if I may, is what questions like this are made for, because even if America had the best government there’d be no way to prove it in what, two pages? So write whatever you want . . . write about America’s amazing ability to make profit by breaking down trading tariffs and bringing American jobs to third-world countries, or how good we are at executing felons; they’re all correct answers.”

- Nick Naylor, “Thank You For Smoking”

Side: Not hard work
2 points

Having the freedom to choose our lives and choose where we want ourselves to end up in the long run.

Side: FREEDOM

I really have no hope (mainly cause I'm a pessimist) but also because there are so many people that don't want to work that hard and you can't change their minds. Look at Europe. ;)

Side: Hard Work
phuqster(123) Disputed
1 point

Just as a matter of interest, what's wrong with not wanting to work hard? Why not work "just enough"? Who cares how hard you work? And how has "hard work" made the US great?

The preamble (which lets face it is actually an initial argument) and your argument posted are tagged wrong. You're really moaning (yet again) about paying for other peoples benefits, and yet you've tagged your argument as "hard work". What you should have tagged your argument as, considering the diatribe you wrote in the preamble, is "Selfishness"

Side: Selfishness
Bradf0rd(1431) Disputed
3 points

Hard work in 2009 is:

- recycling

- conserving water and electricity

- growing your own food

- cooking every night (never going out unless it's to the grocery store or a special occasion)

- doing repairs to your car, house, etc. YOURSELF.

- closing the door of an air-conditioned building after you've walked in

- finding a trash can to put your trash in (or if you can't find a trash can, carrying it with you until you do find one)

- being polite to elders, holding doors open for females, opening the passenger door to your car for your significant other

- making your bed in the morning, because it looks good and keeps shit clean

- and then going to work and caring about the business that you're in... as if it belongs to you.

Hard work isn't just swinging a hammer while you're getting paid for it. If you don't work hard, as if you care, your quality of work will follow you home... and then you piss me off when I see your trash on the ground everywhere, especially when it's 12 feet from a trash can, and when I go to the grocery store and have to navigate a 50,000 square foot parking lot full of randomly placed baskets because people can't just walk their shit back to the store, and when I work and all I hear about from my co-workers is shit that could just as likely come from a girl... "I got a new x", "Someone said x", "I can't wait until I'm off".

Call me old fashioned but "just enough" is never enough when it comes to your work ethic.

Side: Hard Work
1 point

I think the argument is more related to whether you think capitalism is based on selfishness or hard work. Hard work along with other characteristics can turn the poorest individual into the richest in capitalism, therefore I believe hard work made this country great. That's just my opinion though.

Side: Hard Work
1 point

In all actuality, we wouldn't have everything that we have right now if it wasn't for hard work.

The settlers HAD to work hard or they would have died. It built character and made better people. Now a days there are so many safety nets that fucking up doesn't do shit.

Back then, people had to build their own houses and collect their own food. This is how America has the West, has railroads, has agriculture and all shit of the like.

Basically, we live in the technology age, which started in the Industrial Revolution. Hard Work is still important, but it's not the same at ALL. Plus, most people are working for someone else instead of working for themselves. I see it as Progression, but at the same time it has also created this horrible, dependent mentality in most Americans and Westerners in general. Trade Off, I guess.

Side: Hard Work

Immigrants, hard work and a dream of a better life here. ``````````````````````````````````````````

Side: Hard Work
1 point

I didn't read the bottom 2/3 of the main post.

Seriously, it's obviously not hard work. Please stop spreading garbage, and upgrade your lifestyle instead.

Side: Hard Work

I guess I've been reading too much Ayn Rand

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ;)

Side: Hard Work
0 points

A lot of things made us great! But if I had to pick just one, it'd be our patriotism and hard work throughout the centuries.

Side: Hard Work
phuqster(123) Disputed
1 point

That's two not one. But either way I'm not a big fan of patriotism, being patriotic when your country's in the wrong or doing bad things is, well, wrong if not worse.

Side: Hard Work
1 point

Well I considered it one because they kind of go hand in hand. If you're patriotic and love your country, hard work should follow suit. I'm patriotic and I want to join the military! lol. If that's not hard work for the country then I don't know what is.

Side: Hard Work
ThePyg(6738) Disputed
1 point

Well, before America was actually born, Patriots were the people fighting for their independence.

So Patriotism has more to do with Individualism. I think the trait that you're so against is Nationalism.

The only thing accomplished without hard work is indifference... which allowed the holocaust.

Side: Hard Work