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Can we use Non-Violence to destroy terrorism?
Non-violence cannot tackle terrorism: Dalai Lama
The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.
The current terrorists are completely brainwashed, and there is absolutely no way to reason with them.
They have a death wish, and they want everyone to die with them.
But it's not as simple as just blowing up large portions of the earth where they may or may not reside.
Because while non-violence cannot deter the current terrorists.
Non-violence is the only thing that discourages new terrorists.
And for every innocent civilian killed in Palestine, Iraq, or Afghanistan by any western force, two or three new terrorists are made, with a zealous will to kill as many as they can, even if it costs their own life.
nah, it's more like al-Jazeera propaganda that create new terrorists.
when an innocent dies, they blame it on the Americans NO MATTER WHAT. So, if we start to take it easy even more (which has been hurting our troops a shit load already), we are just being counter-productive.
I could have google Al Jazeera myself. Show me an example, I said.
Re Lone Survivor: Anecdotal evidence is not admissable in a debate. Look instead at patterns of behavior. The US military has many bona fide heroes, but WAY more people who are frighteningly psychotic given the chance.
very much agree. non violence is not the answer. but violence only creates a bigger problem. we can not sit and wait nor can we attack. terrorism is very real. it will never go away, it will always be a problem and the way we deal with it will always have negative impacts. its a lesser of two evils
Maybe we could try the technique used with annoying children, and I'm completely serious about this:
They do something bad, we don't take notice. I know this sounds extreme, but maybe we could work somewhere in the middle. Don't give them all of the media coverage. Don't let them get the satisfaction of chaos in the Western world. When/If Osama releases another video, give it to the CIA and the President and don't play it. They might notice that they are blowing all of their children, neighbors, and friends to bits, and they are getting nowhere with it.
If they still insist on killing their fellow countrymen, let them. Let it happen, because by then we have tried counter-violence and non-violence. There really would be little more to do to stop these terrorists. Maybe then we could re-evaluate the situation and come up with an idea.
The Dalai Lama's government in exile has proven CIA connections, and thus is tainted such that its political opinion cannot be considered objective. Even if there were no connection, he shouldn't be treated as the foremost authority on peace. The title of Dalai Lama was more of a Pope/ Feudal Monarch before the illegitimate Chinese Invasion.
As far as violence and peace go: Let's say I live in a large family. You kill my sister (For Oil? :P). Any reason at all. If I then express murderous rage against you, what would have been the best way to avoid it? Not kill my sister, or kill me, enraging the rest of our siblings? Yes, I am the king of terrible analogies.
They are often brainwashed, yes. Instead of contemplating that, ask yourself how you may be brainwashed. Instead of by a manipulative Imam, by the incredibly efficient Capitalist machine. Advertising, entertainment media, most news sources, the educational system-- all have an interest in keeping you ignorant of the whole story. It's easier to call them brainwashed maniacs than to explain that they too are people, with human motives for their actions. They are just as convinced of their righteousness as you are of yours.
In essence, what I'm saying is that violence probably is an okay short-term answer to terrorism. Long-term, it will only incite more people to the cause until it can't be contained. A much better strategy would be to refrain from egregious exploitation and mass murder such that people don't want to crash planes into us.
I very much like how you put together this argument. I would also agree with you on the point that capitalism has much, MUCH, to do with the violence that we see today.
You cannot believe that you can just muscle your way through problems. Look at Gandhi, He was a firm believer in nonviolence and he helped set in motion the Indian Independence Movement. If Gandhi had taken the violent approach it would have never gotten close to accomplishing what was accomplished in India. It is not always appropriate just to pull out the big guns, sometimes it is better to use non-violence
first off all your argument is irrelevant. the government he protested peacefully against was not a terrorist group, it was great Briton with people in London who supported Gandhi. we are talking about terrorist, negotiating with a terrorist just shows they can get their way. if your child screams and yells for a cookie, do you give it to him? no he would think he could do it again to get a cookie later. if a terrorist group abducts or blows up a building then asks for money, land, or some other thing, do we give it to them? no they will do it again every time if they don't get their way. you must use force and knowledge to kill terrorist. not agree or negotiate terms with them after they slaughter innocents.
If terrorists learn this lesson, the world would be a better place. They are only adding to the problem. If only they would realize that they are part of the problem.
If American can learn this lesson, the world would be a better place. They are only adding to the problem. If only they would realize that they are part of the problem.
If only you learn this lesson, the world would be a better place. You are only adding to the problem. If only you would realize that you are part of the problem. (;
Wow, thats some poetic shit. I wonder to you roam around disagree with the people who boost about Americas greatest, or how their a force for good. I wonder to you post wise ass comments next to these people. You have no idea how much of a hippocrit you are do you.
Would you prefer Al Qaeda? Are they better? If they are so much better, why don't you go live with them in their country and use your science degree to help them out? I'm sure that would be better than working for some blood sucking corporation ;)
To remind you, there was a great leader, Subhas Chandra Bose who was killed in a plane crash. Just a accident or sabotage.. no one can say but if that great person existed then I think India would have gained it's independence long long back.... He beleived in violence against a violent govt. Gandhi ji surely gave us our must awaited independence and I respect him for that, but it was a deep dark and long process.....
Why on earth do we make things complicated?????? Non-violence is a very good approach but not applicable in the 21st century where there is no place for humanity!
A hard slap back on the person's face who slaps us just at that moment, why to put forward your face again to be slept hard AGAIN???????????????
I have a deep philosophical commitment to the principle of non-violence. Not naive notions of non-violence so commonly associated with cowardly submission to tyrants but the kind of non-violence practiced by the truly powerful.
It is an expression of desperate weakness to resort to violence. Here is an example: Suppose as you approached, there was a ten year old boy assaulting your kindergarten age daughter. You must act as immediately as possible to stop the attack. You shout stop! with no results when you see nice heavy rock you could bash his head with. Fortunately you ignore the panic induced violent impulse and act in a more admirable way by quickly and somewhat forcefully pulling the boy away and restraining him as opposed to delivering a blow. The point is that when we are staggeringly more powerful we need not resort to violence.
If you equate non-violence with refusing to use force, then non-violence cannot help fight terrorism. If you think of non-violence as a deep commitment to prevent injuries whenever possible you are on a more enlightened path than the Dalai Lama.
“Non-violence is the philosophy people adopt once they become sufficiently acquainted with the realities of serious personal conflict.” ~ Atypican
Non-violence can defeat terrorism if the terrorists-to-be are persuaded by peace. Terrorists mostly come from backgrounds that promote hatred and denigrate peace (relatively in comparison with western society). So they generally don't respect the peaceful protesters because they wont fight. Less-lethal weapons aren't exactly non-violence but they can be more useful.
if they are persuaded by peace, then they are not terrorists. terrorists main goal is to strike terror in the hearts of the public. if we just roll over and let them wreak havoc, then, they will wreak havoc. they will not stop if we just stop fighting back.
The terrorists are only terrorizing us because we are killing their people. We just randomly bomb towns with tons of innocent people. Believe it or not, the terrorists don't like this. They see America as a threat.
Really, we need only look at what's happening today compared with history. America has been at war with 'terrorists' (not that I don't believe there are terrorists) in the Middle East for ... well, ever since America was a country. And in those 200+ years, we haven't really solved anything.
The reason is because the villages in the Middle East aren't very well-educated, so when the Taliban go through there, the villagers won't think against what the terrorists say. Killing the Taliban won't work, because they can always recruit more from the uneducated masses.
But enter in people like Greg Mortenson (who deserves a Nobel Prize) who builds schools in the Middle East, educating the villagers. With education, villagers are much more likely to think critically about what the Taliban say and realize that what the Taliban do is not right, and, thus, not join them.
It is obvious the Taliban hate the schools, because there have been a few attacks from them on brand-new buildings. Obviously they feel threatened. Thus, we should do it more.
Destroying terrorism using violence will never work. It is a band-aid solution that does not address the underlying problem, whether its poverty, discrimination, religion, corruption etc. Fighting with ideas is the way to defeat terrorism. We need to counter religious propoganda/indoctrination with rationality, counter corruption with transparency.
Destroying terrorism using violence will never work. It is a band-aid solution that does not address the underlying problem, whether its poverty, discrimination, religion, corruption etc.
Violence is a systemic problem with humanity that will probably never be entirely erased, so everything in a sense is a band-aid solution.
We need to counter religious propaganda/indoctrination with rationality, counter corruption with transparency.
In ideal circumstances, that would be fine, but unfortunately, there are always going to be groups of people who simply won't listen to reason. There will always be people who blame innocent people, and inspire violence. Until there comes a time when everyone will be reasonable, there can't be a peaceful solution.
the reason they commit "terrorist" acts against us is because of our horrible foreign policy that plagues their countries. if we stopped fueling wars in the middle east and propping up dictators, and shipping over heavy artillery, and torturing, and establishing foreign military bases, and flying killer drones over their cities, and enacting kill causing deaths of millions of civilians, etc, then they wouldnt be trying to terrorize us, and besides, terrorist plots are rarely successful and even when they are its usually 5 or 6 people killed. compare that to the amount of innocent deaths caused by these wars
Actually..., doing all those things you said we shouldn't be doing has put a damper on their terrorist activities. You may not know this but the radicals over there are like, "Look! Up in the sky..., it's a bird..., it's a plane..., it's a flying, killer, dro...." ;)
When we stop arming, funding, and making more terrorists due to blowback of bombing innocent kids, families, ect then there wouldn't be nearly as many "Terrorists" as there are today. People ALWAYS looking for a CURE but not for the CAUSE. How to terrorists a threat to us? We have a the 2nd amendment. Truth is they are NOT a threat and nothing but a boogeyman so we can destabilize the middle east and try to justify more military spending for the war profiteers!
The issue was terrorism is that it is not just caused by violence. You would have to solve a lot of problems before people stop trying to be terrorists. Even then, there will always be outliers.
You sound so impartial, here. You try to find solutions to problems, you dont point fingers, your not on the left or the right. The only person your fooling is yourself. Your an apologist for grave war crimes commited by your governement.I find that to be disgusting.
Oh come on. Who are you kidding. You love it. I bet that when you were a kid your mother would tie a piece of steak around your neck so that he dogs would play with you. If it wasn't for me, you'd have no one to pay any attention to you ;)
Why would I think, " ya i got him good there." ????
I already told you a millions times, I don't do real debates. Why would I care if I win or lose or get an up vote or a down vote? I don't even know you, so why would I care what you think? Whatever anyone types on this site will never be used in a peace accord between Israel and Palestine to stop their fighting. Why would I take any of this seriously?
Oh come on, i know you probably dont care a whole, i get that.I know, for the most part, you probably do just engage with people to make jokes but you know as well as i do thats theres a little bit more to it than that.When your arguing with someone you know you want to beat them (to a certain extent) whether you realise it or not, because you beleive your views to be correct, otherwise why argue in the first place.Ive seen plenty of your deabtes and alot of them are far from just fun and games.You might pretend to be facetious all the time but we both know your not alot of the time. Competition is natural, even when arguing with someone theres no point in denying it.Again(as usual), the only person your fooling is yourself.
When your arguing with someone you know you want to beat them (to a certain extent) whether you realise it or not, because you beleive your views to be correct, otherwise why argue in the first place.
Do you really think that I'm arguing with you? I'm flattered. I'm not trying and I'm succeeding ;)
Look that would be a fair enough criticism if you were willing to actually look at the facts rather than saying no you're wrong simply because i dont agree with that. Thats what stirred me up.
What facts? That human nature is what it is? I've always known that.
If America were to get blowed up tomorrow, some other country would take its place and it would be back to business as usual.
Most passionate people are young. They are idealistic. Then they grow old and realize that nothing's changed in thousands of years and they move on with their lives.
Think about all the hippies in the 60's. Where are they now? They became the people they used to warn others about ;)
I say no because terrorism happens in peaceful countries and it happens in violent countries. Plus non-violence can be a sign of weakness to a terrorist.
Look at that statement, do see anything wrong with it, anything at all. Ya bomb the hell out of them, let just drop all the nuclear weapons we have on the middle east. I said you should commit suicide cause i honestly beleive the world would be a much better place without you nutjobs.
You make statement lioke that and then have the guile to say i need to educate myself, your a fuckin extremist, your as nad as Al Queda member im afraid and thinking not is only a self delusion, dot he world a favour and kill your self seriously do it do it. Whatever problems you have there only gona get worse with time , think about it its much easier just top yourself. You wont be missed i can assure you.
Im not angry, im irish were not insecure people like you americans, i say what think. I'm just stating an opinion that i beleive the majority of people who argue with you will agree with (whole heartledly) because you dont know how to debate or listen to reason or the facts.
I'm not little either im 6 foot 2 and i weigh 13.5 stone (~180lb).
hear is the voice of reason drowned out in a room of incompetents. observe closely, his kind will cease to exist in the near future due to out breeding.
Totally! But those people over there are hiding them, so I say that we scare them into handing over the terrorists...like terrorize them or something! Yeah, let's do that.
Oh I see. We're dishing out the punishment of death for people building tunnels? People who could well be building tunnels to bring in much needed food and water? Obviously it has to be weapons because, after all, that's all these simple minded muslims know; how to kill.
I would have thought someone from a free and democratic country would have understood that catching someone building a tunnel isn't legitimate grounds to kill them. Arrest them, interrogate them, fill the tunnels back in? All of these would be sensible options during a ceasefire. Nope... death is obviously the only option for these tunnel building bastards.
Regardless, you continually make ignorant statements about hamas breaking the ceasefire, and the absolute fact of the matter is that Isreal broke the ceasefire on November 4th.
That's not what I said at all, and just goes to show the stupid "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that some people have towards this stupid war on terror.
We don't know what they were doing. Isreal will say smuggling weapons. Palastinians will say smuggling in food and water as the Isreali checkpoints were refusing to allow in humanitarian aid. You've obviously made your mind up which one you believe without any actual evidence. That right there is what I mean by ignorance. You've obviously decided which side you believe and will lap up anything they say and instantly dismiss anything the other side says. I listen to the things being said from either side with a very skeptical ear, as both are engaged in a large propganda campaign at the moment.
As I said, arrest them and interrogate them if need be and actually try to find out what they were doing and present some facts to back that up. That's how free and democratic countries such as the US and UK do (or at least should do) things. To shoot them on sight simply on the suspicion that they are building tunnels to smuggle weapons is absolutely wrong.
You say you listen to both sides but every sentence you have ever typed on this site is in defense of the terrorists. You've obviously made your mind up which one you believe without any actual evidence. That right there is what I mean by ignorance. You've obviously decided which side you believe and will lap up anything they say and instantly dismiss anything the other side says.
"You say you listen to both sides but every sentence you have ever typed on this site is in defense of the terrorists."
Thank you for proving my point. You have a terrible "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude, and its obvious that no amount of sense or logic can ever motivate you to look at a situation from both sides. Just because I take a step back from situations and look at them from the view of both sides, I am "defending terrorists." If I don't agree with your factless baseless bullshit, I'm a terrorist sympathiser. You used the exact same argument before when I called you out for calling muslims ragheads.
"You've obviously made your mind up which one you believe without any actual evidence."
Actually, I clearly said I believe niether. Niether side can show me sufficient evidence at the moment. In that position, I have to side on the fact that killing people just for catching them building tunnels is NOT okay. That's my default moral position.
You have a terrible "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude, and its obvious that no amount of sense or logic can ever motivate you to look at a situation from both sides.
So why bother arguing with me. Never try to teach a pig to dance.
My position is that they have both committed atrocities and I really don't care. The world will never allow the Palestinians to destroy the state of Israel and the Palestinians are currently not strong enough to destroy the state of Israel. So why don't they just give up until they are strong enough. Saying that Israel did this and it was wrong and the Palestinians did that and they were wrong is a waste of time because you will always find someone who will justify those actions.
You keep on trying to pigeon hole me into being and the side of Israel and against the Palestinians, Look at the the debate above. It has nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinians. It has to do with destroying terrorism and how non-violence will not work because terrorists are fanatics.
You try to get me to believe a poorly made propaganda piece and get offended when I don't sympathize. The official at the very end was not done talking. He was cut off in mid sentence after uttering the words the interviewer was looking for. The qualifier for the words were purposely edited out. If you really believe that dribble, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.
Also, if you expect me to believe that we should frisk little old ladies at the airport instead of young, middle eastern men, then you have an uphill battle. I'm all for profiling. Same goes for the tunnel diggers. The fact that I don't believe the tunnel diggers are good Samaritans does not not mean that I'm for Israel. It means that I really could not care less about the tunnel diggers. If the roles were reversed, I'd make fun of Israel for being stupid enough to get captured.
I've met Zionist in college. I don't like them. Zionists are fanatics and no better than Hamas.
Anyway, that's my stance and if you try to pigeon hole me again I'll fart in your general direction ;)
"So why bother arguing with me. Never try to teach a pig to dance."
Imagine if the US gave up when it looked as if the English were going to give you a good kicking.
"Saying that Israel did this and it was wrong and the Palestinians did that and they were wrong is a waste of time because you will always find someone who will justify those actions."
This is exactly the point. Most of the things I read from you are justifications about why what Isreal is doing is okay. It's not okay. Both sides are completely and utterly wrong, but my point of contention is not your condemnation of the actions of Hamas; it's your justification of the actions of Isreal.
"You keep on trying to pigeon hole me into being and the side of Israel and against the Palestinians"
Joe, come on now. If we go back over your debates are we going to find anything else but condemnation of Palestine and justification of Isreal. I've often seen you make statements such as "Well, maybe they should stop rocketing Isreal then" when something is said about Palestine being attacked, but I've never ever seen you make a statement like "Well, maybe they should open their borders and allow humanitirian aid in" when something is said about Isreal being attacked. You and I both know that you favour Isreal in this conflict, and you'll find whatever excuse possible to justify what Isreal does. Even the argument that caused this exchange; "maybe palestine can stick to the ceasefire" was said as justification for Isreal's actions, when in fact it was Isreal that broke the ceasefire (which you again went on to try to justify).
"You try to get me to believe a poorly made propaganda piece and get offended when I don't sympathize. The official at the very end was not done talking. He was cut off in mid sentence after uttering the words the interviewer was looking for. The qualifier for the words were purposely edited out. If you really believe that dribble, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you."
That dribble is actually a BBC article; probably one of the most unbiased and professional news organisations in the world. But of course, it doesn't agree with your idea of what is going on, so it's immediately brushed aside as a "poorly made propoganda piece." Get a clue.
Here are some more sources, maybe one of them will tickle your fancy:
"Also, if you expect me to believe that we should frisk little old ladies at the airport instead of young, middle eastern men, then you have an uphill battle. I'm all for profiling."
I'm for profiling too. It make sense to manage your resources effectively, and the fact of the matter is that terrorism on western countries is normally performed by young muslim males. I don't agree with stopping and searching without a good reason though.
"The fact that I don't believe the tunnel diggers are good Samaritans does not not mean that I'm for Israel. It means that I really could not care less about the tunnel diggers."
Okay. Then please explain to me, if you don't care about either side, why it is acceptable for Isreal to rearm but isn't acceptable for Hamas to rearm? Would it have been justification to break the ceasefire if Hamas had caught Isreali soldiers transporting weapons supplied by the US along the Gazan border? Would you have said "Well, Isreal got caught rearming; they deserved to be instantly shot." My guess is that you wouldn't, would instead use it as an example of Hamas terrorism, and would immediately condemn Hamas for breaking the ceasefire.
I do enjoy the fact that your constant insistance that you don't immediately support Isreal shows that you know, deep down, that your views about the conflict are wrong.
Always remember that the only difference between the Isreal military and Hamas terrorists is funding.
Okay. Then please explain to me, if you don't care about either side, why it is acceptable for Israel to rearm but isn't acceptable for Hamas to rearm?
Because Israel won. It's like going to see a football game and the loosing side just keep on making plays when the game is over. It's quite annoying. The losers should just get used to the idea that they lost, get over it and move on with their lives. As it stands right now, lives are being lost needlessly. Hamas can't win. What the hell do they expect; for every Jewish man, woman and child to pack their bags and leave? That's just not going to happen. The reason I seem pro-Israel is because I see the terrorist as being mentally challenged. They are fighting a war that has already been lost using a tactic that has no chance in hell of being successful. I see them as being total idiots. It would be easier for me to sympathize with them if they would just do something that I can relate to like capitulating, signing a treaty and start building a Palestinian state. But as it is, I just find it hard, at best, to side with stubborn, mule headed, fanatics.
I would just go over there and say to them, "Look, you don't like them and they sure as hell don't like you. So why don't you just go to an all out war. Last man standing wins. That way we don't have to hear either one of your people bitching and complaining about anything. I'm tired of the crap and I don't want to hear it anymore. I don't care."
Why on earth to you create debating topics about terrorism (or what you percieve terrorism to be) if you dont care. You spend alot of time deabting these issues and when someone corners you in an argument you say "i dont care" to get out of it, your a sad man.
Ha, i love it, seriously man, thats fuckin good, you do amuse me Joe, if nothin else. Do you think your insults have any effect on me,i mean really.You my friend are just a blind evolutionary function incapable of extracting yourself in any way from the culture into which you've indocrtrinated. I know we all products of our culture but you my friend are unbeleivable, sitting in your big house writing this stuff down, you must really think you have things figured out, dont you. Ha, seriously man i love it, i do. Keep um comin Joe.
Thanks, i try you know. I try so hard, you know deep down inside im just craving other peoples approval, i dont what id do without. Its like an aphrodisiac for me, you know, like when i read your comment there i immediately noticed an increase in the blood flow to my penis, its throbbing and pulsating a little bit now.
Actually, CB is what my Iraqi friends call you. They said that you should never let a camel into your tent because they are so stupid they bump into everything. They said you were the camel and CD was the tent. And after dealing with you, I have to agree with them. You are stupid. Hence your new nick name, CB ;)
Well im sorry but suppose ill have to disagree with you and your rich Iraqis friends. To be honest after dealing with you ive given up on the belief that older people have a richer understanding of life. I never really beleived it fully anyway but you've completely destroyed it.You my friend have a very one sided view of the world and you dont how to react to anyone who thinks any different. By you calling stupid, ha, i love it. Keep um comin buddy.
I really don't have a once sided world view. I only come across that way because of your one-sided view of America. Why don't you tell me about all the good America has done around the world.
It depends on what you view as good. Like America is responsible for advancing technology in ways that arent comparable to any country. Actually i dont need to tell when you asked me that question i type it into google and the first hit was this youtube video. It shows some of the great things your country has done. I acknowledge your country has done good things (again i appy that definition loosely) but they're completely unrelated to the kinds of things we've been discussing, you' know what i mean if you watch the video.
It depends on what you view as good. Like America is responsible for advancing technology in ways that arent comparable to any country. Actually i dont need to tell when you asked me that question i type it into google and the first hit was this youtube video. It shows some of the great things your country has done. I acknowledge your country has done good things (again i appy that definition loosely) but they're completely unrelated to the kinds of things we've been discussing, you' know what i mean if you watch the video.
NO country would do better that not the point, if were ever going to prgress we have to stop the lies and acknowledge exactly what is going on. Your country needs to stop the facade and the hipocracy otherwise things will only continue as they have done. Can't you see that without truth bad things will happen, like im sure there are many in your country that would supprt war with Iran even though it would be completely unjustified. If you beleiev all the lies they tell you and you dont question their actions your giving free reign to commit their crimes.
So Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants only to create electricity. He does NOT want an atom bomb. The fact that he refuses to have another country provide fuel for his electricity generating nuclear reactor is of no consequence. The fact that he has thousands of centrifuges creating weapons grade nuclear fuel is purely fictional propaganda. Every country that thinks that Iran is trying to build a nuclear bomb is participating in American propaganda. He loves Israel and he would not consider attacking Israel. He has no ties to terrorists who would love to get their hands on a nuclear bomb and detonate it on American soil.
Is this pretty much what you believe?
Let me put it to you this way. I don't give a fuck what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad thinks or wants. I don't want him to have weapons grade nuclear capability. I sleep better at night knowing that there's one less person I have to worry about whether or not he wants to detonate a nuclear weapon on American soil. For all I know he shares your view that America is the largest terrorist organization on the planet. If that's the case, he may not be like you; he may be more inclined to attack the U.S. I don't want to take that chance and find out.
No he wants the bomb, you can be sure of that. I dont want them to have it but unlike you i know they only want it for leaverage, they know if they ever used it on Isreal they be destroyed, again give these people some credit, they have richer history than anyone one this planet, the Meospotamian culture was the advanced civilisation when our decendents were shittin in hands and throwing at each other (exaggerated obviously), the Persian culture as well was ahead of it time, ive been to the country, they are a cultured people, much more so than those in your country, you can be sure of it. These are not stupid people and despite how the country has been portrayed in your media its quite a free society, i honestly beleive if America wasnt so agressive towards them the theocracy would have fallen out of favour a long time ago but you see Iran has a lot of leaverage even withou the bomb, they control alot of oil, they have lot of influence in the region, they missiles positiioned all alon there coast at the gulf oil wells, they can literally shut off the oil supply completely if attack. This is where they get there leverage.
You see i agree with eberything you wrote your problem, and in my opnion every Americans problem is that they want there position in the world to be completely assured i.e. they want to hold all the cards, they want complete safety and power at the same time and your willing to do horrible things to other people in order to obtain it. Even what you just wrtoe leads me to beleive you would not oppose an invasion on Iran if your country was able to drum up enough phony evidence alla Iraq WMDs. You have no right to invade that country and kill the beautiful (yes the are incredibly beautiful, look up some of their women, unbeleivable) and cultured people of Iran, and you should have insight to realise you have no right.
they know if they ever used it on Isreal they be destroyed
Yes, so all they have to do is get some of it to some terrorist group and let them do the deed. I mean, it's not like the bomb is going to say on it, "Made in Iran." and even if it does say that, there won't be much of it left once it blows up.
Regardless, I don't think we should give them the chance to get that kind of leverage. The consequences could be.... you guessed it, one million dead ;)
You know what, you have no idea how biased you are, do you? You probably think you are not but believe me, you are. And it's pretty sad to. Especially since you are supposed to be a scientist. Maybe you did not mean a good scientist. Maybe you meant a mediocre scientist ;)
You incapable of seeing your own folly arent you, and as a defense mechanism you through back the exact same argument to the person that has made the initial claim. Ive read through this debate and i can see im not alone in my frustration.
First of all does what happened to the isreali army justified killing 1200 hundred civilians in cold.Think about it. 400 children too young to even know fuilly what was going on were killed in cold blood.White phosphurous was poured on them from above. Im a chemical engineering let me educate you on white phosphurous.It burns at over 600 celsius (that will burn the flesh right off your bones). When i lands on you its incredibly hard to remove, its got adhesive properties, its like a glue. If you put water on it, it speeds up the reaction and you get burned faster.
Isreal was using this with U.S. backing even though its banned under the rules of war, they even denied it while it was being done and didnt leave any journalists into the area.
You would have been a fine footsoldier in the Nazi army my friend, supporting actions like these without question.
You have Iranian friends. You never mentioned that previously. Let me ask you this are they part of the diaspora that (elites just like Mubaraks or any other country you've tried to control, there are loads) fled the country when the theocracy was established. I think almost 1 millioni of these Iranians were given asylm in the US along with the brutal dictator the Sha, who they no doubtedly supported. Cause if they are (and i have no doubt they are) its a bit rich calling me a pussy considering they grew fat on their own peoples backs and then abandoned their conuntry at the first sign of danger. Fuck them its becasue of people like them that they kind of hardship institued by the regimes propped up by washington was ever allowed to come into being. They're opinions are probably just as twisted as yours.
You know you can say what you like up there on your pedestle but the reality is your rich iraqis friends and your Iranians friends are the people dont speak for the majority despite what you'd like to beleive. I'm sure if i showed my "mad rantings" as you called them to most well read Iraqis and Iranians they'd agree wholeheartedly with my assessment.And i dont just tell myself that to make myself feel better, ok Joe. I able to tell my self that becasue i have a little thing called factual evidence backing me up and a sprinkling of common sense which is an alien concept to you.
It doesnt take a genious to work out that most Iraqis are quite unhappy with America. At least the non elites, but im sure you know non of them, don you Joe.
It also doesnt take a genious to work out that most Iranians
hate America (again not the fuckin elites that allowed America to come into the country and prop up the Sha, and which then insured an era of inequality begun, and then high talied it out of there when the majority rose up)
Ive been to Iran with my parents and we met many Iranians and lots of open minded students over there. Unbeleivably friendly peopel, they all hate the American government(FOR VERY GOOD FUCKING REASONS), many arent even religious.
If you think these peopel will call what i say the rantings of lunatic your only deluding yourself.
Then go live with them. Birds of a feather should flock together.
But before you go, are you trying to tell me that there is no possibility that the only reason the American government back people like the Sha is because the middle east has always been a violent place (tribes constantly fighting each other). And that getting oil to the market on time from a place where there is constant fighting is difficult at best. That countries need a reliable source of oil. That governments are lazy and if someone says that they can stop the fighting and get the oil to market on time, then those countries are going to support that man until he proves incapable of making sure the oil gets to market on time.
I mean, doesn't the paragraph above makes more sense and sounds more reasonable than, "American corporations enjoy killing brown people and stealing their oil!"
You were doing OK until the end where you ran afoul of one of Godwin's corollaries which states that "once a comparison is made to Hitler or Nazis, whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."
Actually if you had done your reasearch and not listnened to what you are told from your governement you would know that it is Isreal who broke the ceasefire. They went onto the edge of the Gaza strip and killed 4 hahas militants (this wasnt widely reported but its the truth, i didnt make it up it what happened and has been documented.Again, look it up (if your capable). Then Isreal responds by massacuring 1400 people, 1200 of which were civilians,400 of which were children. They dropped white Phosphurous on civilians. This illegal to use even against a military force in war (not that this was a war, as it so called).
The problem here is that you either think that I care or you think that you can make me care or you think that if I just read your silly little links that I would care..... I don't care. I'm just sorry they didn't get you ;)
Now whos the angry man?, sorry they didnt get me, fuckin hell, is that what you want to do to all the people who disagree witht the U.S.,wipe them out?.Well let me tell your wishes are being carried out as we speak. I wish i could drag you over to a country made desolate by the U.S. and show you some of the suffering first hand that your country has created, i wonder would you come out with the same nationalistic propaganda then. You make me sick.
I'm beginning to think that all of your friends are doing something about it like blowing themselves up and you want to do something about it but you are too scared so you come to this site to complain so that you can tell yourself that you are doing something about it and make yourself feel better about being such a little chicken shit. ;)
Ya, thats its you have me completely figured out. Fuckin hell man how do you do that, you should be a fortune teller or something, there's money to be made. Your right all my friends are out blowing themselves up, oh, i think i hear one go off there as im typing. Ah well he had a good run, so much for the trainstation.I'm such a little chicken shit, if only i had your big sweaty american balls then id have the confidence to anything hijack a plan with carton of butter and fly it right into the empire state building.Someday maybe, a man can dream.
You sound really angry and once that happens, you lost. This is exactly what joe wanted and you fell into his trap. Take it from me, you can't change joe's mind because he doesn't care. You're just wasting your time. Ask anybody that has been on this site for a long time. The best thing to do is ignore him.
I have to reiterate im not angry, really im not.Look it probably seems that way cause im a fair passionate but also very very blunt person. I'm not tryin to change his mind, but im pretty confident i can destroy anything he says.
The only way to beat a stick is with a bigger stick. We have the bigger stick, but for some reason we aren't using it. Let's show those terrorists the same thing we showed Germany when we ended WWII! All that patriotism and force that put America on top should not be going to waste now. We need to end the war on terror once and for all. The only thing stopping us from doing that are those damned liberals who think that non-violence is the answer.
Well that will depend on the circumstances. The world is a complicated place - one cannot simply open cans of whoop ass whenever one feels like it. I trust Obama will take the best course of action when dealing with terrorists.
Al-Queda never threatened our freedom. In order to take away our freedom, they'd need an army big enough to wipe out ours and set up their own government. They don't have anywhere near the power to do that.
I i agree with you completely Joe America should be bombed back to oblivion to give them a taste of their own medicine, whats that i hear you saying, your not right or left or liberal or conservative.
See, that's where you and I differ. When 9/11 happened, I did not go on CD to complain about 9/11. I supported my government to go out there and bomb the shit out of Afghanistan. And they haven't come back ;)
What, im serious, what? I wish you knew what it was like to be in war zone, to be in an insecure hostile place being bombed by a hostile foreign power. I bet all your joking and not giving a shit would stop quite fucking quickly.The fact that you dont emphatise or even sympathise with these people is one thing. That only shows you up to be completely self-interested but supporting what your government does in your name with full knowledge of it makes you a very evil man.
It's not brave to stand up to conservatives. They're war-mongers. That makes every bit of sense as your statement. None at all! I am considered a liberal on this site but I don't consider myself a pacifist. I believe we can settle many differences by diplomacy but not all. Those we can settle by using détente and diplomacy, we should. Those we can't, let us find a way to diffuse some of the hatred if we can and if no other option is left then war could be considered. I do not believe we can use non-violence to destroy terrorism but I do believe that for situations other than terrorism, we can and should.
"It's not brave to stand up to conservatives. They're war-mongers."
If you don't stand up to a war-monger, it is because you are not brave. It is because you are a pansy ass. It is because you lack balls.
BTW, when I use the word 'you,' I don't mean you so don't take it personal. English doesn't have a way to differentiate so I am making it explicit. I do not mean you explicitly. On the other hand, I'm not saying you have balls either. Not because you're a pansy ass but because you're a woman. It's just a figure of speech. And.... Oh, forget it. You either know what I mean or you'll choose to be offended. (;
"It's not brave to stand up to liberals. They're pacifists"
I was responding to what you wrote and clearly said that it was just as ridiculous. You can't make blanket statements like that and be serious and neither can I. Not every Liberal is a pacifist and not every Conservative is a war-monger. If you don't stand up to a pacifist it is because you are not brave. It is because you are a pansy ass. It is because you lack balls.
BTW, when I use the word 'you' I don't mean you so don't take it personal...and blah, blah, blah.
Ya you've got big balls, big massive cohunas,big sweaty ones that weigh you down, your the man. Is this why you come to this site, ego enhancement, it is isnt it. Fuckin idiot.
Uh! That's gross! I've called joe names before but you are disgusting. I know he makes you mad, hell, he makes me mad, but there are other people who have to read your crap so tone it down a bit.
Last time I checked going after Osama was unanimous across the whole country,
And it was a Republican administration who decided it wasn't that important, and started another random war for no real reason somewhere else while Osama is still on the loose.
Have you been taking your hate pills again? The Bush years are over, we can all get along now.
BUSH: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.
Technically, we may be able to give Osama a stroke if we were successful at getting his top generals and the rest of his entourage to hold hands and sing, "I like to teach the world to sing..." in perfect harmony. But what are the chances of that (;
You were the one who made the debate about hate leading to more hate. Surely you must understand that the same is true with violence...why are we attacking terrorists? Because they attacked us. Why did they attack us? Because we did something to them. Why did we do something to them? ect... and all the while innocent civilians get killed in the crossfire.
Should we go after terrorists and those who attack us? Yes. Should we show indifference toward human life (thus provoking more terrorism) in the process? Well that's what we've been doing, and hey it's been working well, right?
Surely you must understand that the same is true with violence...why are we attacking terrorists? Because they attacked us. Why did they attack us? Because we did something to them. Why did we do something to them? ect...
So what did we do to them? Is it that we created a free market economy based on multi-national trade which let our country flourish while their land shut out the rest of the world and went into a spiral of poverty?
It's called Neoliberalism. International exploitation and technical slavery. Unconditional support of Israel's land grab and subsequent genocide. Read:
Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance
Confessions of an Economic Hitman
Seriously. Even if you don't agree with the books. You will never learn anything new if you don't read anything you disagree with.
Ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the first world war (and probably before that) Europeans have been interfering with the middle east. Did you ever wonder why maps of the middle east look the way they do? Because the winners of WWI arbitrarily drew lines to divide up who would control what. That is why we have three groups in Iraq that hate each other.
As for the U.S. specifically, pick a group and I'll tell you what we did to them. Iran? We helped the French replace a republic there with a puppet monarchy. The Iranians later staged a revolution and set up an anti-western government. That's why they hate us.
How about Afghanistan? The whole reason Al Qaeda gained power is because the U.S. used them as a tool to fight the Soviets during the cold war.
And trust me there are plenty more examples. So next time you think they hate us simply because we're rich, learn some history, then think again.
Why can't we just become friends with them? Who says we have to kill them all? If you go looking for friends you'll find them, if you go looking for enemies you'll find them alot faster. Trust devlops over time, we've pretty much screwed them over so far. Why can't all hate be put aside, we live on the same planet and we will always.
Well, in this last "mini war" Israel lost 13 people and the Palestinians lost like 1,300. I would imagine that with those numbers they should be the ones to capitulate first or become extinct in the process.
Seriously, terrorism does not work. They have been trying it for 40 years. Gorilla warfare is far more effective. They need to change their strategy.
I doubt anyone uses terrorism as a "tactic." It's just what happens when people get really, really pissed off and feel the need to lash out in any way they can.
You dont get shit and thats clear from what you say.
If you were really, really pissed off at your neighbor, would egg his house if you knew he would destroy your home in retaliation?
The piont your missing is Isreal is destroying their homes regardless, thats why their resisting. Theres no major conflict right now but palestianians are still being forced off land and kicked out of houses that are rightfully and legally theirs.Fucking idiot (as you can see thats replaced peace out, i think its alot more fitting, dont you?)
Why do you call it a war. Nothing that happened there resembled a war. 4 of the IDF soldier killed were by friendly fire, so 8 vs. 1400 people (1200 proved to be civilians, 400 hundered children, what was their crime). IT WAS A FUCKIN MASSACRE. Bombs and white phosphurous were being dropped on civilians as they huddled in fear.There is no real fighting going on between Isreal and Palestine, what you have is an race of people being wiped off the face of the earth slowly but surely. Palestinian resistance is purely symbolic, they no they cant win but they continue anyway cause they dont want to go down on their knees, i happen to find that admirable.Call me what you want you biased american apologist.
I was looking at it in the greater context of the Isreal Palestine conflict actyually (by the way a monkey would have been able to tell that) and yes i do find it admirable that they are willing to stand up to Isreal rather than be completley beatne down. If a young child stand up to large feared bully whos gona kick the crp out of him anyway, i find that admirable, this is exactly the same.
I'm just afraid that the terrorists will hear you and continue what they are doing because it is so admirable and then they would win. The terrorists have been doing this for decades and they are winning. They are so close. Just a few more bombing runs and they'll win. Which is a good thing for them because they are starting to lose people to blow themselves up. I mean, you can't be killing 4 and losing 1400 forever! They are sooooo close ;)
Who are terrorists, the whole palestian population is it.I didnt kknow you were a filthy racist as well as being an idiot but you've just proved it. So, 1400 terrorists were killed in Gaza, not 200 Hamas officials and 1200 CIVILIANS.
I dont consider teenagers whose families have been kicked off their land and treated like dogs solely because their the wrong ethnicity and religion, terrorists because they chose to throw stones at the people who did it. I admire them for them that. You dont even know what im trying to say, your incapable of it cause it just doesnt fit with your narrow view of the world. Your like a robot thats gotten the wrong instructions, does not compute, does not compute. People like are the reason these things are allowed to continue.
I t must suck to be you. I mean, you're really serious about this crap and you want to change the world one person at a time by giving them links that talk about what is really happening in the world and the first person you try to convince (me;) doesn't give a rat's ass ;)
I dont expect you to care like i do or even to give a fuck but the least you could do is acknowledge the truth of the situation. I mean if you see a child getting beaten and raped by two massive skin heads with knifes, i wouldnt expect you to jump right in and save the day, but i would expect you to textify to police that thats exactly what you saw, and not that the child was the one who provoked them and thus deserved everything he got. Don't take this anology too far, knowing your cartoonish style you'll probably try to use it against me .
And believe me your very far from the first person ive tried to convince about anything.The fact is if i wasnt in college at the moment (and thus bogged down with course work and a thesis project with means im on computers 24/7) i wouldnt even be on this stupid site.
More than you might think beleive me. Its a two way thing, most of the people that were willing to listen changed there opinions maybe not completely and maybe not straight away.Thats also not to say that they didnt have an effect on my own opinions, as i said its a two way thing.
Ya, again you got it in one Joe.Fuck man how do you do that.I wish i was as smart as you. God i wish you were here now, just so i could hold you tight in my arms and feel your body warmt.Uhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
Terrorists, terrorists, terrorists you have terrorists on the fuckin brain cant you see that. Ya, were so lucky we have the good just american army protecting all the peoples of the world, looking out for the little guy protecting us all from the scurge that is the dreaded terrorists. What would we do without the U.S.
This debate is about terrorism. This debate is NOT about what gary77777 wants to talk about or what he thinks is important or what he's passionate about. I cannot help it if you get easily confused when people talk about terrorism in a debate about terrorism. ;)
Oh dont you throw that shit at me. Come on, we both know exactly what i meant. Need i refer you to my opening comment about the U.S. being far greater terrorists than any of those organizations you want to think are a danger. Let me let you in on a little secret your governemnt is hiding from you, America is the big fuckin danger.
Anyone who doesnt play by your countiries rules are automaitcally terrorists, that gives you the moral justifcation to go and destroy them. Just like the communists were evil 2 feet tall monsters, not actual people like you or me. Now Iran are the big bad. I'm not tryin to stand up for Iran but beleive the truth of what goes on in that country is far from whats depicted in your media, but obviously you think Ahmadinejad is Hitler casue thats what you've been told to think. Ya, your on the good just side, your country cares about democracy, just keep tellin yourself that the next time your country blows the shit out a bunch of brown people you fuckin hipocrite.
Please stop taking everything i say in the most literal sense. The only reason i said that is that so many of those who've suffered by your countries hand or its corporation have been from south america or the middle east.Both predominantly populated by brown skinned people.
But the problem is NOT America. The problem is human nature. Name one country that is 100% nice to other countries and/or peoples. I wont even force you to pick from contemporary countries. I'll let you chose from countries from the way back in the past. All the way to the start of civilization ;)
Israel won hands down in the battle itself. But look at the world's reaction to their choices. PR victory for Palestine.
Here's an analogy. Terrorism is to guerilla warfare as guerilla warfare is to musket volley fire. Greater psychological and tactical effect in proportion to (smaller) resources. If a state decides to fund terrorist attacks against us, the state has a much greater chance of dealing us a big hit without being found accountable.
Easy. Our stated mission is to kill soldiers on the battlefield. Their stated mission is to kill civilian infidels (men, women, children, dogs, cats, etc.). ;)
Oh, right and when your country is responsible for the deaths of far more civilians than any terrorist organisation could ever achieve, thats just collateral damage. Ya, all those people really shoudn't have gotten in the way of the terrorists.
Do you even no how fucked up you are. Do you seriously think in the grand scheme of things of that there is any real difference between the extremists in your country and the islamic extremists, or are you that blind, oh wait, you dont need to answer that. You keep enjoying your delusion, i hope you live long enough to see it come crashing down around you.
Are you so blind that you can't that you are an instrument, a pawn, used by the terrorists to spread their hatred towards America. Oh wait, don't answer that. You do it willingly and knowingly ;)
How am i an instrument. I dont beleive any radical beleifs,i dont support any crimes any side. I'm not spreading hatred towards America. I mean how can you say that. Mind my is free my friend. I say what i say cause see enormous suffering, islamic terroism is just response to that suffering and mistreatment. I dont support any terrorist, beleive me i dont supprt any of thsoe organisations, but i look at whose doing the most damage and im sorry but there really is only one answer to that. Your problem is you value Western blood alot more than middle eastern. You think its a much bigger crime is a Western is killed than if a thousand Iraqis die in some air raid, thats just collateral damage to you. Well i look at and it makes me sick to my stomach. Why can you not acknowledge that your country has done more wrong than any terrorist organisation.
you value Western blood alot more than middle eastern.
It's not that I value one over the other. It's that I am extremely prejudiced against stupid people.
Let me explain. For decades, the terrorists have tried to change the Palestinian situation through terrorism. And here we are. Decades later and still..... nothing has changed. Albert Einstein once said, "Insanity is doing the sane thing over and over again and expecting different results." I call it stupidity.
Anyone that expects to change America's international policy by stating, to anyone who will listen, that America is the largest terrorist organization the world has ever known, is an idiot. That tactic has never worked. A better tactic would be to tell the people of any middle eastern country to overthrow their oppressive, tyrannical government and replace it with a democratic government that will use the money (obtained from selling oil to the U.S.) to improve the standard of living of the people and invest it in the country's infrastructure. The U.S. doesn't care what the country's ruler does with the money. The U.S. only cares that the are no threats to the flow of oil.
What benefit is there to the U.S. for ANY collateral damage? Do you really believe that America loves to inflict collateral damage?
You're probably right, but there's no reason we shouldn't work towards peace. Isolated acts of violence may continue, but with global cooperation peace between nations can exist (at least I hope).
Take a knife to a gunfight and stab them while they're laughing. Muslim terrorists hold the belief that if they die in a war for God they will go to paradise regardless of past actions. Convince them that Americans hold nothing against Islam and they will have a much harder time recruiting albeit it's a bit too late for that now that we've entered a full on war.
I think we all like peace and want peace. I wish we could destroy terrorism with non violence I really do, but it can't happen that way. However anything we can do with non violence we should.
Does anyone really think we can get Osama Bin Laden and or take down the tali-ban with non-violence?
Yes. With an educated populace, the Taliban would have nowhere to recruit from. The current Taliban would either kill themselves in terrorist acts (or get caught beforehand), or just die of natural causes in a few decades. With no recruiting pool, they can't survive.
The reason we haven't had a major terroristic attack since 2001 is that the terrorists are trying to run from our military. If we suddenly try to make peace with them, they will go all out and attack attack attack. These radical Muslims do not care if we want to be friendly with them. They only want to kill the "infidels" and the "non-believers", regardless of friendship status!
You know...., who are you going to blame once the people in the Middle East get rid of their oppressive governments and they start fighting among themselves ;)
Ya im trying to brainwash you. My cult is low on members so this our new strategy, go onto social networking sites and rope people in with our crazy propaganda. Its the craziest method ever used, let me tell you what we do, we tell people the truth and hope that if they have a shred of compassions for their fellow man they'll listen and not dismiss it as propaganda cause it doesnt fit into their narrow view of the world.
1. You dont care because you dont have to care. You incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of the peoples were discussing.Ok, fair enough you're not a empathic person, you're incapable feeling compassion for your fellow man, your happy doing what your doing cause your one of the lucky ones i.e. born in the West.Thats fair enough if i blame you for that ill have to blame the whole of Western society.
2. Ive already talked about this, i honestly beleive the truth doesnt lie in the middle, and i base that on the facts(not leftist propaganda like you want to beleive and begged you not to take my word for this but you seem so dedicated to living in bluissful ignorance that ill drop it after this)
3. Again, i direct you to Noam Chomsky. Your small minded opinion thatv this man has an agenda only shows how little you know of him (and theres a good reason you dont know who he is as well). Becoming the 2nd most quoted author in history means something you obviously cant comprehend. It means that the facts you present in your books (again hes written over one hundred) are so incontrovertible that every other respected author uses them. Again, i absolutely beg you not to take my word for it, look the man up, make up your own mind.
What? I know this probably isnt meant to be a serious comment but really is that the only way you an justifly it to yourself.What does that even mean, do you even know. You say your truth is not my truth but there only one truth, you'd know that if you actually gave a fuck about the e truth
The truth is that human nature is what it is and you will be hard pressed to change it in any significant manner any time soon. Therefore, you're just wasting time ;)
Human nature, your still takin that crap.Ive already said i agree completely with you on that particular issue but to take the stance you take because of it i find quite pathetic. We cant win so why try, fair enough i can understand it alright.
OK, now the next step is to realize that being passionate about something you are powerless against is frustrating (for me). Therefore, I don't get passionate about things I am powerless against because I hate feeling frustrated. If you can handle being frustrated that's fine. Just don't try to drag me to your level. ;)
Ya, exactly me and those pescy liberals, as usual you got it in one Joe. Me and the liberals usual meet up at some ranchy bath house to discuss or evil plans, then we collect all our ball sweat in one big jug and we do like a little lottery.The person who wins gets fuckin drenched in the stuff while we all watch and wank furiously.Uhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! Seriosuly man you dont know what your fuckin missin.
You clearly can't see the difference so ill attemp to dscribe it to you. Those peopel you mentioned only support the interests of the giant corporations who own their souls even the most moderate people in your media can be tared with the same brush as your whole madia is corrupt.
Noam Chomsky was voted the greatest intellectual alive. This man will go down in history, poeple will be studying him in philosophy, political science, sociology, etc., etc. courses long after both of us are dead. He is the second most quoted author in history, shakespeare is the 1st. This means the information he presents (leaving out the judgements he comes to based on it) is irreftutable, or as close to it as is humanly possible.Thats wht you dont seem to grasp, you think he has an agenda because he doesnt say what you agree with.
What could his agenda possibly be, seriously i want to know. Why do think he holds the views he does. He disagrees with the entire politcal system in America, not liberals or conservative or otherwise. Anyway, you'll find if you want to.Again, though i think your happy living in ignorance
I have a reputation to maintain. Most people stay on this site for about a year. I've been here for almost 3 years now? I guess you haven't learned that you shouldn't try to teach a pig to dance. Nor have you learned that you shouldn't wrestle with a pig. You can't win and the pig likes it ;)
You clearly dont know me either, i grind people down over time. When i started college i did so with new friends i had made. They were from a much different background to myself. They were all reasonably posh, not very open minded kind of elitists but i worked on them. Over time they made an impression on me but i made a much beiiger impressoin onthem.Although if i knew you were nealry 50 i probably would nt have bothered, it does seem ive bitten off more than i can chew.
No, im sorry if thats the impression i gave you. My opinions are shaped by the info. i receive. I question that info. more than most, beleive me. This has lead me to become more aware than others(i hope that doesnt sound to egotistical, inevitably when you talk about yourself personal bias is unaviodable). Then i share this info./opnion based knowledge with people who i think are somewhat receptive and open-minded. Sometimes they reject sometimes they questoin it. When it works it workd well though cause not only to i change their minds on many critical issues but my own views are refined based on being put under such scrutiny. I admit my views are still far from correct, nobodies are, personal bias, emotinal bias etc. etc always gets in the way, but when you can look at things cynically, prahmatically, realistically and above all objectively(although pure objectivity doesnt exist as close as you can manage) you begin to see things a lot clearer. Sometimes someone needs to piont out how your views are wrong (thats what i attempted with you) other time you can come to those concluions yourself.
Your opinions are so warped against America that you can't see anything good that comes out of this country. I bet that as far as you're concerned Bill Gates is not a philanthropist. All the money he gives towards helping African nations nations get rid of disease is really a cover up so that he can take over, rape Africa and steal their natural resources.
Thats just not true. I have a deep respect and admiration for things your country has done, the movements produced within your own country etc etc.
I have nothing against the American people, i beleive them to be badly brainwashed people who beleive in a lie. There news media is badly letting them down. The lie that America is a froce for good needs to be acknowledged as such.
By the way there are exceptions to every rule, Bill Gates has done alot of good but that in no way negates any of the claim ive made about US corporatism.
OK! Now we're getting somewhere. So when you rant and rave about America being an evil empire, you're talking about every American corporation....., because, I guess every Irish corporation is a force for good. Is that what you're saying? Or is it that every corporation on the planet is a blood sucking entity?
Firstly, there are no International Irish corporation, Glanbia foods used to be until the co-operative broke off and formed there own irish organisation.
Or is it that every corporation on the planet is a blood sucking entity?
The answer (at what i beleive in my heart) to this question is yes, all corporation are prodiminantly evil entites, ok. They do not exist to serve the masses, they exist to serve a priveleged few at the expense of the masses. Now im am speaking relatively here. I think on the whole this statement is true
Like if you've ever dabled in advanced statistics you may have heard of hypothesis tests, i think that in a hypothesis test where the null hypothesis is that the above statement is false, would have a p-value of below 0.05.
Now the reason i single America out is becasue your American and you have disagreed with me about what i stated about your country from the very beginning, so really it wouldnt be much good talking about finlands crimes. Also, your country has done a lot more wrong than alot of others. When i say that what i mean is they have interferred wit other people from other countries, much more thn any other country.
Also, capitiism, free market econimics, and the worlds dominant(most ruthless) corporations all emanate from the US. Also, these corporations control your geovernment, you have the illusion of a democracy, it not really what you think it to be. Admittedly its better than many other places but the corporations cant have the people realising how their being fucked in the ass everyday now can they. They thing is they dont care about anyone pver seas.
Yes other corporations are just as bad, some based in Brazil are destrying the rainforest, the list is endless but the frustrations of someone like me will alweays predominantly be pionted at the US because they are the worst and that is where they were born.
Listen camel boy (C.B.) Your mother looks like a camel. Which is good because it shows that she is not concerned about society's high expectations of what women should look like.
You would rather screw a camel than drive a car that gets low gas mileage.
Your being associated with camels shows your solidarity with terrorists.
Now i guess your lack of imagination is contagious. Hey you know what you shoul try, its great for the imagination. Try sticking your head into the oven and turning on the gas, does wonders for your imagination.
You must be on some serious meth to think that non-violence can end terrorism. What do you suggest Gahndi, should we go to the Tygris River and make our own salt?
Look, we've tried the whole 'peace' and 'non-violence' thingy time and time again. There's nothing that non-violence can do to stop the terrorism. They just want to fight, and they see non-violence as a weak and easily exploited trait. The only way we can stop the terrorism is with violence.
Dont forget to include state sponsored terrorism like that of the U.S. which is responsible for about the deaths of people on a gigantic scale. Ordinary run of the mill terrorism like alkida can never hope to compare to that. Think about over a million Iraqis have died since the invasion. Now they werent in a good position before that but still. 1/4 million died from the first gulf war and the sanctions imposed on Samdam (by the U.S.) as a result of it collectively punished the entire Iraqi people and caused the deaths of untold millions (look it up, its well documented, type killing the children of Iraq into youtube or else you have to trawl through amnesty international and WHO documents). I know ive only focued on Iraq but you could apply similar arguments to most countries outside the Western world and some inside.The amount of blodd on Americas hands no conventional terrorist can ever compare to and you'd be hipocrites to exclude it from your argument.Peace out.
Millions, huh? So American soldiers went into Iraq and killed over a million Iraqis? Are you sure you are not counting the Shiites killed by the Sunnies? Maybe you're also throwing in the Iraqis that got killed by Al Qaeda? And Iraqis that died of old age and natural causes? I'm just saying ;)
Your just saying are you. Well at no point in my argument did i say anything about American soldiers going into Iraq and killing a million people. Maybe you should re-read it or you could try not being so ignorant in future(im just saying). I stand by everything i said. The best studies coming out of Iraq estimate that about a million people have died since the invasion. Now you'd have to be an idiot (and you may well be) to think that those deaths aren't a direct consequence of the invasion. Now i know that American soldiers are not responsible for every single death in Iraq thats ridiculous, the figure on that wikipedia page quoting the various sources shows that about 100,000 civilians died as result of direct combat and roughly a million have AS A RESULT OF THE CONFLICT.Again you'd have to be an idiot not to recognise that what America has done has created a lawless destabilised state lacking any of the basic necessities that we expect i.e. food,shelter,healthcare of any kind,education and the right not to be killed walking down the street. Now it is really that much of a leap in causation to acknowledge that this may have at least contributed to these deaths (i mean really) or are you so stupid that you think if America hadnt invaded a million people would still have died within a period of less than 10yrs. And whats all this for oil and more control over the bewildered people of the middle east, i really hope more countries follow Egypts example and shake off the puppet governemnts the U.S. has put in place to repress the people, its disgusting to even think about it.My original point had very little to do with Iraq and your attempt to discredit me is really quite pathetic the facts you presented are the ones i presented (i will admit i was little selective in my quoting). The point wasnt to get bogged down in the minuatiae of the Iraq war, Iraq was just the most convenient example to quote. There is a multitude of atrocities i could cite why dont you pick one it doesnt have be well known like Vietnam where America was responsible for the deaths of between 3-5 million Vietnamese (again a best estimate please dont post some wikipedia page quoting that actually the south vietnamese army was responsible this or that fraction of the dead or some other stupid ignorant reason that means America wasnt to completely responsible as they were and you know it, dont insult my intelligence for god's sake im a scientist its my job to get the facts right, i know the facts im quoting are correct i base them on the best sources of info. available). I really do hope you respond id like to continue this argument, actually one thing you never said was whether you disagree with the fundamental point of my argument which was that petty guerilla terrorism cannot compete with American state sponsored terrorism, why dont start by answering that im sure your answer will give me few laughs.Peace out.
OK, so let me get this straight..... you think you're smarter than me ;)
I'm sorry, but..., you're what? In high school ;)
Do you even own a car ;)
America has done has created a lawless destabilised state lacking any of the basic necessities that we expect i.e. food,shelter,healthcare of any kind,education and the right not to be killed walking down the street.
Destabilized it to the point that they have free elections ;)
I really do hope you respond id like to continue this argument
Of course. You are one of the reasons I come to this site. You crack me up ;)
People like you my friend are the reason i joined this site and its you who crack me up, so certain in your beliefs.I'm really glad you decided to respond im looking forward to you next correspondance. In answer to your questions; yes i do own a car (its all mine im a big boy now dont ja know),no im not in high school im in college at the moment studying for a masters degree in sustainable energy engineering, my undergrad. degree was in chemical and biopharmaceutical engineering and let me tell you its one of the hardest most work intensive engineering degrees available. I worked for a year before starting this masters but wanted to diversify my degree in order to find work more readily outside the pharmaceutical industry which ive grown to detest but thats besdide the point.
Now ill respond to the only point you actually put across in your argument (even though calling it that is quite generous). Are you really so stupid as to think that any Iraqi person is happier now that they have free and fair elections, dont be ridiculous.Their country is so much worse off than it was before im not even going to go into the details your smart enough to find them yourself, hopefully, unless of course you get your info. from the American media which is basically like a massive propaganda network continually pulling the woll over the eyes of the American people. Again im not gona get into it if your interested read Noam Chomsky's manufacturing consent (or watch the documnetary movie made about it, its probably more suitable for your type anyway). Now free elections, what planet are you living on you imbecile. Do you honestly think the Iraqi people have democracy i mean come on.Look at the middle east its in complete upheavel and why, why do you think that is. Ill tell you why, because America has been propping up dictatorial regimes there for a long time (sometimes under the guise of democracy) and the people are fed up of being repressed.This is the csae all over the world particularly in South America but again im not gona get into it. Your an absolute idiot if you think the government in Iraq will serve the people and not their American masters.Look at Eygpt, Mubarak has been in power for over 30 years with American backing with torture and repression commonplace. I doubt if we will ever have a full knowledge of it. And then the people rebel, America gets worried,starts wavering, they didnt know what to do, continue to support there dictator or pull the plug on him.Look the their reaction in the first couple of days of the protests, first they said there should be an orderly transition then they said he should stay, then when they reaslied that wasnt gona happen they decided to jump on the band wagon of he protestors (so they could be seen to be supporting democracy). There plan now is to put in place pretty much the same regime with a dictator like Mubarak (sulliman (Mubaraks right hand man) is in control now and its well known he was torturer for the U.S.) My point is that America doesnt support democracy they support what favours their strategic interests (just lokk at the actually democaratically elected governemnt of Hamas, whatever you think about them they were elected by the people but America calls them terrorists and refuses to acknowledge their legitimacy as they dont play by American rules),Mubarak has been given over 70 billion over the last 30 years in order to control himto make sure he'll do what they want. I could continue with this line of reasoning but i think you get the idea. Im looking forward to your response, please dont just repeat highlighted sections of what i have written its quite rude and you should know ridicule is not an argument in itself.Why dont you try presenting some of your own counter arguments, you obviously think quite highly of yourself maybe you should try doing what this website was actually created for. Up until this point you've done very little debating you never responded to my previous argument. I have know doubt i can destroy any argument you have in relation to this because i sense that you absorbed a whole lot of bullshit propanganda which can easily by destroyed when you have the truth on your side.If i dont get at least one meaningful reponse from you this will be my last. Maybe your happy to acquies in your own ignorance, if thats true your quite a pathetic man. Peace out my blindsighted, small minded friend.
Oh your friends live there do they, thats makes me a idiot does it. The fact that you know people there is as far as im concerned irrelevant, ya i know palestian people but i dont hang my arguments on what they tell me, again you've demonstrated how foolish you are. Let me ask you a question; please indulge me, do these friends of yours live in subhuman conditions like the vast majority do in Iraq(i assume thats where your friends are from), are they deprieved of the most basic rights granted to us in the West (again like the vast majority in Iraq) or are they like that silent minority of Egptians (~1-2% of population) who loved Mubarak as he made sure they lived extremely comfortable lives while the majority suffered terribly. If you think you can win a debate with that shit you are sadly mistaken,you use quite a unique arguing stlye, first ridicule the other persons arguments and then claim to know more than them by using some tenous link to the topic,no seriously you should get that shit patented you'd make millions.It could revolutionise debating. You might think im an idiot and you perfectly entitled to but any one who takes the time to read this correspondance will know exactly who the idiot is. I wasnt even gona respond as i was hoping for an actual argument but you pissed me off with that arrogant shit. Why not trying responding to my arguments (seriously any of them you responded to none and stop focusing on the minuate of Iraq im critisesing U.S. policy, Iraq is a very very small part of their artrocities, what are you afraid to defend your country cause you know you'll lose). Peace out.
My friends are Shiite. They are not rich. They say that America has made some mistakes on the past but they are glad with the outcome of getting rid of Saddam.
America is also for the Egyptian revolution and against Mubarak.
America is also against Iran obtaining nuclear weapons.
I don't find anything wrong with these policies.
BTW, I did not call you an idiot. As far as idiots go, I think you're one of the smarter ones. Peace out ;)
I'm glad to see your responses have become more cordial.I admit some things ive sent in your direction have been pretty deplorable also but thats how i get when someone ridicules my arguments without any actual counter argument. Now im not trying to take anything away from your shiite friends and i am aware that they constitute the majority of the iraqi population, i also acknowledge that they have a unique perspective that you or i do not have and thus when the say something about their own country it carries alot more weight than when you or i say it. Now its fair enough if your friends are optimistic about the future (i suppose they kind of have to be given everything thats happened).I also think given that the shiite kurds suufered most under saddam that they would be more accepting of the occupation than alot of other Iraqies. Unfortunately i dont think this optimism is well founded, just look at U.S.'s track record in Iraq. First they support Saddam and they continue to support him for the majority of his tenure as dictator of Iraq.In fact America loved him i think i remember quote from Donald Rumsfeld saying somethin like "hes our man in the region." This is while Shiite were being massacred of course and they had full knowledge of it and dont try to tell me they didnt. They arm him to the teeth with some of the best weaponry available at the time so he sould win a war with Iran (a country they had a puppet government in until the people revolted).Again loads of lifes lost but as long as U.S. aims are being supported who cares right. Then he over staps the mark and gets a hard slap on the wrist (Gulf 1) but they liked how he ruled the Iraqi people with a iron fist so they leave him there to continue. When they find out hes not going to be completely subservient to them they invade in order to control it (the oil) for themselves directly (more or less) under the guise of corporations that serve American elite. So i happen to think their optimism isnt well founded believe me i nwish it was.
Now America is pretending to be for the Egyptian revolution thats more or less what i stated previously, as i said watch Washingtons reaction in the wake of the upheavel. You can tell they dont know what to do their puppet dictator is being ousted before their very eyes.You can think whatever you want about this as well your entitled to but theres a very good reason why America never spoke out against Mubarak or any of the dictators in the middle east. Its because to a large extent they obey America. And why would America speak out when there getting their own way, i mean really just cause theres unbelievable inequallity (which exists in America too but thats a different argument), extreme repression, complete totalatarian control of the population, torture, death squads you name it why would America speak out about this when there getting their own way. Fucking hell man open your eyes, seek out the real news not he propaganda your fed on a daily basis.
Now i happen to be against Iran obtaining nuclear weapons but the American agenda is a lot more complex than that. I dont want to go into it too much (ive already written alot) so ill just say this; they had control in Iran previously (the Sha another brutal dictator despised by the entire population) now they dont, and their worried iIran will grow too powerful (admittedly nuclear are part of that) and they'll lose their foothold in the region. Thats what motivates them nuclear weapons will just be the excuse they use if it does happen just like Iraqi WMD's. Now you clearly trust your governemnt, no offense but i consider that to be incredibly nieve. If you think any of these statements are false please feel free to challenge them. Its my belief that you fear they will use the nuclear weapons if they acquire them, i have two things to say about this 1. Isreal already possesses 300 nuclear war heads in my opinion they are just as likely to use them on an arab country than Iran is on Western country (but Western blood is more valuable then middle eastern blood, at least thats what the governments think but dont say) 2. the only country ever to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population, you guessed it America.
Also you said your friends are not rich, dont know how you define rich but they obviously dont live in abject poverty otherwise you would have said so. Most Iraqis do live in poverty, its my contention that if these people were asked are they glad the U.S invaded i think their response would be a firm no (thats my opinion) and these people (the very poor not shiite or suni or any other race) are the majority in Iraq at trhe moment.Peace out.
Israel has had nuclear weapons for a very long time and they haven't used them yet so I trust them with those weapons.
My friends trust America more than they trust Iran. Maybe because of the war they had with Iran or maybe because they are more secular than Iran. I guess they think Iran is just a bunch of little Shiites wanting to take over Iraq.
America did speak out against Mubarak, just like it speaks out against Chinese human right violations, but it's their country. It's up to those people to do something about it. The Iraqis needed help and now they are happy to be rid of Saddam. ;)
I know Isreal has Nucs for long time and im sure if Iran procured them they have them for long time as well (what you think their gona make the bomb and use right away jesus you watch to much american scare mongering propaganda).I think the real reason you font fear Isreal with those weapons is cause you know (either consciously or subconsciously) they're not gona use them against you or any other Western nation but against poor war torn middle eastern people. I stand by what i said, Iran wants the bomb for the same reason Isreal has it, as a deterant. I happen to think if Isreal was provoked and the U.S. withdrew its backing (not that, that wopuld ever happen) i think they would be much more likely to use the bomb than Iran rather than give back the holy land (ha, fuckin extremists) they acquired illegal (under international law) in June 1967.
No, offense but i dont think your friends speak for the majority, the facts just dont bear that out.I dont have links the exact polls and surveys but please take my word for it that educational institutions havev done studies that proves that the majority of people in the middle east fear US and isreal alot more than Iran.
In refernece to China, yes of course they speak out against them, China are powerful, America cant control China in the same way as other smaller countries across the world so of course the US speaks out against it. Again im not trying to support China or anything but they arent the ones supporting dictators all over the world (i admit Tibet is pretty fucked up).Myy point is the US pretends to be on the good side when its convenient for them, this is well documented please try and open your mind. I thought like you once aas well, i accepted the propaganda thrown at from Western media, i understand living in America your subjected to alot more than this but please try to find things out for your self, dont just assume your correct, be humble and be willing to accept that you might be wrong, thats why i joined this site, i want to know if everthing i beleive is correct or are there persepctives and angles i havent taken into account.I not gona comment on Iraq again you clearly have your own steadfast opinion just know that i think it to be entirely false and i base that opinion on reliable facts with little or no personal bias.
Now ive already written at length about the situation in Egypt, your clearly not willing to take my word for it.Thats understandable but you could at least look up some of the claims im making rather than returning with the usually propaganda spat out by washington on a daily basis.Heres an article that shows how the FBI are responsible for training Mubarak's thugs in the art of coercion of the enitre population (this wouldnt have been broadcast on CNN over the last 32yrs for obvious reasons)
Heres is a reuters article detailing how isreal were shocked at how America abandoned one of their closest allies in the region (for 32yrs they funded him and his repressive regime, they gave him over 70billion just to him, he has it now in Swiss bank accounts for the love of god look it up) when the trouble flared up in Egypt
Heres a video from the higly reliable news station Russia Today (there a little bit biased when it comes to Russian matters but ive watched this station alot and i can tell you their on the ball when it comes to International matters)
And heres link a talk from the eminent linguist and political philosopher Noam Chomsky gave on the subject recently (if you havent heard of Noam Chomsky you need to right now seriously of all the links here this is the most important by far, he's American and if you havent heard of him theres a very good reason you havent(BECSUE HE SPEAKS THE FUCKIN TRUTH), many of my friends had views similar to your own before i introduced them to him but he is as close to an infalable human as there ever has been on this earth)
I really do hope you take some of these links seriously, i found them in a hurry (about 5mins) so i cant vouch entirely for their veracity but they seem to be reliable enuogh. Again if you look at any make sure to look at the Noam Chomsky one, i cannot over state this enough. Dont respond to me again unless you have reliable info. to counter what ive presented (e.g. articles that prove i was wrong on something not just your opinion or your friends opinion, thats not how debating works) or just to say i was right. Im sorry but theres only so much i can do to change your mind if you dont want to whole heartedly engage with this thats your prerogative, ive tried my best and i hope ive at least made you look at the info. you receive with keener eye than before.Peace out.
Look im really tired tired of this and i was really hoping you'd actually respond with something meaningful that has a little bit if intellectual rigour about it. Im going to to do to you more or less what you did to me at the beginning of this argument.
"I think Iran would turn the nukes over to terrorists as soon as possible.
Now, I find it interesting that the stuff I believe is propaganda but the stuff you believe is not propaganda." ;)
Firstly; what you've presented is opinion, this is clearly demonstrated by the beginning two words "I think."Now i can respond to this biased opinion in a multitude of ways all of which i will think are correct and you will obviously think are incorrect. Even though im tempted i wont respond with my opinion as it will do no good anyway. Now i dont know what exactly it is you beleive or what sources of information you think are reliable but if you would tell me id be happy to tell you what i think of them. Now ive asked to find out who Noam Chomsky is,hes head of philosophy and linguisticts at MIT, hes written over 100 books (many of them best sellers), hes the 2nd most quoted author in history, he more or less created the modern field of linguistics. Please do not refer to this as propaganda (if you only knew how wrong you are), i beg you, go onto youtube just watch a few of his videos(even the 10min ones), approach it with an open mind, this man is the most respected intellectual alive for reason. You clearly disregarded all of the sources of info. i sent you why not try examining them for their veracity before accusing me of believing in propaganda (or do you even kniow how to).
Now im not saying i havent thrown a lot of my own personal opinion at you but ive backed alot of it up with credible sources of information which ive asked you to challenge for their veracity and you haven't which is what is supposed to happen in a proper intellecetual debate. Look id be just as happy being proven wrong as being proven right thats what your faling to grasp here. In fact id be even more happy to be proven wrong but i get the sense no matter what is thrown at you your just gona hold tough with the opinions you have which i find really really sad and small minded.
Plus im starting to think you dont take this seriously at all(the whole site i mean). You just come on and throw out your opinion (to get some weird ego boost or kill some time or something) and think you can win a debate based solely on opinion. Well im sorry if you've ever engaged in debating at a college level you'd realise how ridiculous that is but you obviously havent. I begging you not to respond unless you have something worth mentioning ive said this before. I dont want to insult you but your starting to leave me with very little choice.Peace out.
You are right. This is a waste of time because there is nothing I can say to change your mind and there is nothing you can say to change my mind.
You were hoping that I actually respond with something meaningful that has a little bit if intellectual rigour about it.
You say that my words are merely biased opinion.
You say that I leave you no choice but to insult me.
You want me to respond with what you consider worth mentioning.
What makes you think that your words motivate me to do what YOU want?
Yes, you are right, I don't take you or this site seriously. I throw out there alternative points of view that I find funny in order to kill some time. I don't care about winning debates because there are no winners. No one can ever win. This is not a college level debate site.
I dont want to insult you but your starting to leave me with very little choice.
Let me ask you a question. Are you one of those radical Muslims? Your comment sounds to me like something a radical Muslim would say to, for example, his wife. "My dear wife, I don't want to beat you but you leave me very little choice." This religion of peace is really very violent. "My dear daughter, I don't want to commit an honor killing but you leave me very little choice."
And this doesn't end with just the family. "My dear neighbor I do not want to convert you to Islam by the sword but you leave me very little choice." And the examples go on and on.
All you want is to win a debate and force people to agree to your point of view and if they don't agree to play YOUR game by YOUR rules then you feel forced and justified in calling them stupid idiots. I bet that if I were standing next to you, you would feel forced and justified in opening a can of whoop ass. And the ironic thing is the peace out crap ;)
First of all you dont know me so dont please dont assume you know what im like, who i am, how react in certain situations or anything else of the sort.I believe myself to be a good honest person who cares about others even outside his family or circle of friends. I have only judge your opinions, i havent judged your character as a person so why dont you afford me the same courtesy.My reactions are to your ridicule and smugness or do you think you are not guilty of these. Now, i deeply resent the accusation that i would react violently to you or anyone else in a debate, i admit i am very argumentative, i care alot about what i perceive to be grave injustice being perpetrated in the world by governements on their own people and by governments on people in other countries. Now it just so happens that your country is by far in the lead when in comes to the latter but your so stubborn that you refuse to even try to verify or check if this is the case.Why dont you look into it are you afraid of what you may find out.Again i refer you to Noam Chomsky.
In answer to your question no im not a radical muslim, im a steadfast athiest and fucking glad to be as well.I lost my religion when i was about 13 when my best friend hung himself, plus im a scientist which ive stated already. Now just because someone vehemently disagrees with American foreign policy (that has taken countless lives and caused untold suffering) that doesnt actually make them a terrorist or a radical as you have obviously been taught by your government and perpetuated by your culture.
I find your anologies to be very disrespectful. The reason i said what i said is because you havent even tried to check the info. ive given you, you've simply dismissed it. you havent given me any sources of info. to check either you simply made grand claims about this or that and backed them up with nothing.How do you expect me to react, i mean really, do you know how frustrating that is.
Now i dont just want to win a debate i want to try to let people know what i know, they can make of it what they will, people make up their own minds in the end whether or which.What is very important is that people make up their minds when they have all the info. and my friend im sorry to tell you, you dont.As i said i would love for someone to prove me wrong, im objective and i will listen to reason thats how i ended up believing what i believe but thats obviously not how you conduct your arguments.
Also i say peace out because i consider myself a pacifist, in almost my life i never laid a hand on anyone that didnt lay a hand on me first.Believe what you want.Peace out.
i care alot about what i perceive to be grave injustice being perpetrated in the world
Yes, so do I. But here's the difference. The problem is not the governments. The problem is the people. The people of Egypt were not ready to have anyone else other than Mubarak. Now, today, they are ready. Mubarak was able to hold on to his power because the people did nothing.
And there's more. If the people of Egypt do nothing to keep radical Muslims from controlling the government, they will end up in a situation similar to Mubarak.
The majority of the people in the world are moderates. Yet it is the radicals that manage to come into power that screw things up for everyone.
I like how you phrase this "Now, today, they are ready." The reason previously is becaue it takes a lot of courage, conviction and determination to stand up to a repressive regime e.g. look at the tiananmen square protests of 1989. People are reluctant to stand.The reason they did is because food prices shoot up and they had no choice. I agree with what your saying but in my opinion this country would have reached this satge alot earlier if the U.S. was not funding the regime with billions. Egpyt is the 2nd greatest receiver of aid from the U.S. isreal 1st. They wanted Mubarak in Power and thats why hes been in power for so long so you not hold America accountable for this or are you to scared about radical muslims, let me tell you something about radical muslims, they only exist because America has done sio many bad things to them, i dont even know where to begin. All you want is oil and power why dont you stay in your own country you dont own the world (even though you wouldnt realise that from there actions).
Egypt would have reached this stage earlier if they have tried to sabotage their government. They wouldn't even have to blow themselves up. Just blow up government crap. Not even an all out revolution. Just harass the government enough to force them into giving in to certain concessions.
I'm not afraid of terrorists or radical Muslims and I don't care who created them. I think we should use intelligence to keep them in check. I don't think we should wage war against them. That's a waste of money.
All you want is oil and power why dont you stay in your own country you dont own the world
You don't think radical Islamists want power? You don't think radical Islamists want a Caliphate? You don't think that Muslims living in France and England and who want Sharia law should go back to wherever the hell they came from? Come on! It takes 2 to Tango.
If you want Americans to go home, then you should also want Muslims to go home and get the hell out of the lands of the infidels.
Human nature is the same everywhere. Middle Eastern people are not more just and pious than western people. America would not have been able to put a dictator in power if they were not able to find corrupt Middle Eastern people willing to brutalize their own people.
Firstly id like to say i agree with a large portion of this argument i just think your coming to the wrong conclusions. Just look at what you've said, at no point have you acknowledged that your country is guilty of anything. Thats your tax dollars at work my friend. As i said the greatest propaganda and indoctrination system ever create and its in existence currently in operation in the U.S. The only reason we have left and right in govenement is so people think they have both ends of the politcal spectrum, nothing could be further from the truth they are both controlled by the same puppet masters(CALLED BIG BUSINESS,MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS AND CONGLOMERATES) Have you ever read the book "a brave new world" by Aldous Huxley. Its like Orwells 1984 (which you must have heard of)except he proposes that governments of the future arent going to control their populations through violent repression, thats proved to be ineffective in the long term, at some piont the people organise and rebel. He proposes that they will use much softer methods but no less coercive.They will keep their populations happy (and unfufilled) and docile all the time, there would be no reason to rebel people would just be completely ignorant and no one would ever question the power of the state as there is an ideological belief imbued into each citezen from birth(Americanism, freedom fries, patriotsm, have you ever thought about that shit). They will also be kept docile (from thinking) by supplementing their human experience with mind altering drugs that numb the mind and the senses (PROZAC,~40% of U.S. adults take it regularly).
Now the reason i bring this up is because i believe the American model to be the first prototype of this kind of society.You can call me whatever you want if it makes you sleep better beleiving im a nut job, i sure you will as this should be very hard for you to digest and there no way i can begin to describe why i believe this via this ineffective medium of communication.Again if your interested look up the book, the author see what you think for your self, im not telling what to think im merely making suggestions which you most likely wont take up as you probably dont have a high opinion of me given that i dont share your views.
Now onto your actual argument as is largely correct in content but fundamentally flawed and selectively excluded the U.S. from blame.Ill start with egypt, people are willing to tolerate a great deal before rebelling against their government, this well known by the U.S. government, they been seeing how far they can push poor depreived civilian populations for a long time (50-60yrs). This is the exactly what happened in egypt and tunisia. Food prices shot up, many peope could not even afford to feed their families and that was the straw that broke the camels back. Now you havent even entertained the possibility this regime survived as long as it did due to U.S. backing but this is the reality whether you want to beleive it or not, im not the only one saying this, the whole fucking world is open your eyes for fucks sake. I wonder why. You immediately blame the corrupt Egyptian people. I will openly admit that midlle eastern people are just as flawed as those in the U.S. (humans are humans no matter where you are) im not claiming anything else but your still failing to see my piont, no middle eastern country or peope has done the things you've done.Your country is to blame as without its backing (with disgusting amounts of blood money funneled into the army and corrupt egpytian hands) this governemnt (Mubaraks) would not have lasted long and probably woudnt even have gotten into power in the first place, sadat who would not have entertained the U.S. so its very likely he was assinated as the behest of the cia (you can label it a conspiracy theory and it may well be but sadat wasnt willing to tolerate what Isreal was doing and then hes conveniently assinated and Mubarak takes his place??hmmm?). When your empire finally does crumble and lets say China replaces it then it will most likely be the subject of my (or people like me) criticism as China will most likely exert themselves in other countries as well when their powerful enough to do so but that hasnt happened yet. So why do you not blame your governemt becasue you dont want to face the truth ive said this before.
"I'm not afraid of terrorists or radical Muslims and I don't care who created them." of course you dont care who created them, cause it was your own fucking government. is it really that hard to accept, cant you just say it. Your government funded the mujahadine in afganihistan which metamorphosised into alkiada. Its a well known and widely acknowledged fact that U.S> foreign policay is responsible for fannjing the flames of hatred and breeding terrorism. Most people have acknowledged this (even in your ownj government) why cant you. If the U.S. kept its hands off what wasnt theirs radical islam would wither and die, can you not see that, come on. And there falgrant support for isreal who are currently commiting genocide against the palestian peolpe. You need to at least try and wake up, you have to want to to to be able to but i dont think you do.
If you had done your research you would have found out that I come to this site to have fun and make fun. I don't take anything serious.
You perceive me to be ridiculing your opinion because my attitude is that no one on this site can ever say anything to change anyone else's mind on anything. Do you think that posting a few links on the internet is going to change anyone's mind? I don't post links with the expectation that it will change anyone's mind. I find that to be a waste of time.
Thats fair enough i didnt realise that entirely so it does explain alot but i do think you realised from the begin that this debate had a more serious tone than other but you still continued on with this style.
That is my style. Look at all of my debates and arguments. Just go to my profile and look. Once you realize that this is my style, you should have just walked away.
This debate is NOT serious. How can it ever be serious if you are only interested in placing blame? You want a serious debate, talk about ways to fix the problem. Everything else is just a waste of time.
Heres a way to fix the problem, people in american wake up from their deep slumber of ignorance and prevent there countrie from murdering other indiscriminantly overseas. Does that sound like a good solution cause honestly thats what ive hoped for, for a long time. Its the reason im conversing with you know.
How would you know what a real man would do you over-zealous (probably fat and lazy) american.You think your a real man do you, thats fuckin hilarious. Im not complaining, maybe thats what it sounds i dunno, im trying to prove you wrong but since you've flatly refused to engage me in a proper debate thats impossible.
Debating with you is like debating with a small child that still believes in Santa Claus. It is impossible to prove me wrong because my argument is that the world has been this way since the beginning of time. This is the world humans have created. Idealists like you have never succeeded in changing the world.
The history of the world is my proof.
You want me to show you links that you can dispute. There isn't enough room. Study history. Any part of it. And then tell me that it didn't happen. Tell me that Nazis did not kill Jews. Tell me that Romans where good people. Every country, every society has committed atrocities. Some bigger than others.
You want to prove me wrong? Change the world. Stop talking about it in a debate site and go out there and change it. At least give it a try. And then come back here and tell me how it went ;)
First of all i already stated that i am deeply involved in many ways. You can be sure of it and if isreal or america do invade Iran then me and all the peopel like me (and beleive me theres a lot) will be heard.
Again,i fail to see how this argument can be used against me, i have studied history and yes there always is an oppressive power but america is unique in their hipocrasy.Other empires made no bones about what they were doning. They more or less stated we've got big guns and were goin in to kill rape and steal.If America came out and said that id have a lot more respect for them. The hipocrasy is unpalatable to me.
Now i admit ill never change the world probably no matter what i do, but im still glad to be on this side. If i was on your side i wouldnt be able to live with myself, thats the difference between you and me.
Oh, so thats it, your spineless, well why didnt you just say so from the beginning. I guess we dont have anything else to talk about. Good luck living your unfuflilled life.
Thanks, i will, i honestly think if i follow my bliss and do, think and stand up for what i beleive in during the course of my life, then my life will be deeply enriched and fulfilled because of that.
Thanks Joe that means a lot coming from you. Its good to know your behind me all the way.Actually i wish you were behind right now Uhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! ; )
Noam Chomsky. The head of philosophy and linguisticts at MIT, hes written over 100 books (many of them best sellers), hes the 2nd most quoted author in history, he more or less created the modern field of linguistics.
Where to begin?
They gave Obama the Nobel peace prize before he did anything. They gave Yasir Arafat the Nobel peace prize. I'm not impressed. It's political.
This guy is from MIT. So? He wrote lots of books (a lot of best sellers). So? He's quoted a lot by liberals. So? I'm not impressed. It's political. His views are slanted left. If his expertise is linguistics, then why does he talk about everything from Global Warming to conspiracy theories? He's a political activist and as such, he has an agenda. I don't believe everything political activists say (left or right, liberal or conservatives) especially if they have an agenda.
You asking me to take Noam Chomsky seriously is like me asking you to take Ezra Levant seriously.
First of all if you knew anything about the man you really wouildnt be saying these, i an assure. Please watch the movie Manufacturing consent, it condenses one of the most important books of this generation into 3hrs. Hes not political, hes not on the left (although some leftists do support his views or at least the ones they agree with). He is a linguist and POLITICAL PHILOSOPHER, thats why he talks on these issues. he doesnt talk about global warming hes not a scientist, i dont what gave you that idea. He doesn't beleive in consp[iracy theories either, in fact he thought the idea of te U.S. staging september 11th to be ridiculous.
He is the one peson i think in the world without any clear agenda. He does what he does because of his morals and he applies the same standard across the board.He talks mainly about the U.S. because that where hes from and also becsue they happen to be the leading terrorist nation on earth for last 50-60yrs (relatively speaking). When your empire declines and falls theypages of history will reflect this fact whether you agree with it or not.You know all this if you actually looked the guy though but he i cant make you do anything.
I dont know who Ezra Levant is and i dont plan on finding out gioven how little you engaged with the info ive presented.
No maybe you should have actually read what it is i said. I said you didnt engage with the info. i presented, meaning you didnt reply to any of it in any way. I didnt expect you to reply with positive things to say and i would have been quite happy to review any sources provided to me by you i stated this. Can you not understand this, its called debating, here let me tell you how it works, one person presents a piece of info. supporting his views the other reviews it for bias flaws, lies, misrepresentation of the truth.Then the ohter person does the same. At the end of the debate the person with the most factually correct info. and the best arguments backing it up is declared the winner. Thats what i was trying to initiate but your dont seem capable of it.
Your just taking what you want from my arguments, your like fox and cnn who selectively edit their news in order to distort the facts and support their own heavily biased (much more so than most beleive me) agenda.
Eh, this is handy to kill time in between work (i do alot of work on computers). Plus i dont like giveng people tha last word even though it looks like ill have to with you, im not use to debate with people who aren't willing to look at the facts. Its one thing to disagree with my opinions and disregard my reasoning (since it not aligned with your own) but its a whole lot worse not to even entertain the other persons info. Why dont you provide me some id be happy to dissect it and tell you what i think of it. I can gaurantee that if there is nothing factually incorrect about thats the conclusion i will come to. Again, im a scientist and i wouldn't be a very good one if i let my opinions get in the way of the truth.
But i doubt you'll send anything, this isnt serious for you, you dont care that you may be wrong (i do) thats the difference between me and you. Your not looking for the truth cause you've already rationalised it to your self that what you beleive cannot be circumvented i.e. disproved. No amount of info. or argument is gona change that, as i said i find that very sad and quite small minded. People like you are what the dalia lama was refering to when he said "their minds are closed." The only way to change your mind would be to actually show you the suffering and death first hand that your country is responsible but heh if that could be done with every american who thinks like you we these problems wouldnt have been allowed to continue.
I don't look at the facts because I don't care. I keep on telling you that you you just don't want to listen.
I don't have to entertain your info. I know human nature. Israel and America commit atrocities. So what? Palestinians and the other side commit atrocities too. I don't care. They all commit atrocities. Big deal. If you had proof that one side committed an atrocity, it wouldn't matter. Nothing would change. Lots of people have pointed to the proof and nothing has changed. Things will only change when people take action against their government. People can only change their own government. They cannot change someone else's government. Only a country can change another country's government.
But i doubt you'll send anything, this isnt serious for you, you dont care
I've been telling you this from the beginning.
you've already rationalised it to your self that what you beleive cannot be circumvented i.e. disproved. No amount of info. or argument is gona change that,
I told you this too. There is nothing you can do or say to change my mind. You are wasting your time.
What I believe is that the world has been in the mess that it is in since the beginning of time due to human nature and human nature is not going to change any time soon. There is nothing that can convince me otherwise. Even the Dali Lama cannot change human nature.
You don't have to show death and destruction, I'm aware of it and it only reinforces what I believe. It's human nature. That's the way it is. That is life. It has been like that forever. It's not going to change any time soon. Grow up and stop believing in Santa Claus.
Firstly, people like you are the reason its never gona change can you not see that. Do you not realise that if every body wanted it to change it would change very quickly.Your like the person who sees starving childrebn in africa on t.v., feels bad for a second but then rationalises it to himself that he is powerless to do anything, then changes the channel watches some AMERICAN GALDIATORS. Seriously Bill Hicks you must have heard of him, best comdeian the U.S. has ever produced by a long way.
Now i am scientist and ive dabled alot in philosophy and psychology also so please dont try to educate me on human nature. You call me a child but believe the arguments your presenting are child like in theit intellectual content.
Your opinion perpetuate this suffering you imbecile.WAKE UP.
No if everyone changed their opinion, fucking hell, your like a child, did seriously not get that or are you just doing it to annoy me, honeslty i cant tell.
OK, I'll let you in on a little secret we are not supposed to tell anyone. The way it works over here is that we have elections where we decide what group of people we like the least and should get blowed up. Then we send our military over there to blow them up. Then we watch it on TV and laugh our heads off(we are sick and tired of watching the same old movies and we like to see action). Then they put the commercials with the starving children and the one were the baby seals are getting their heads bashed in and we laugh some more. Seriously. That's how it works over here. We are a bunch of blood thirsty bastards. And we do this so that we can get cheap oil so that we can run down illegal aliens with our cars as they cross the border. That's why we love those big SUVs. You should come over for a visit ;)
Oh come on. You are not interested in the truth. I am providing you with a service. I should charge you money. All you want is someone who will listen to your mad rantings. ;)
First of all your getting the same service, i could equally you that same argument against you, do you have any idea how many of your argument can be used against you, I mean i havent piont many out but there are a lot. And i think i do care about the truth, sorry thats just my opinion, but fucking hell i have to say that critism is fucking rich coming from you, you resist the truth with such force it would have to shoved up your rectum before you'd begin to digest it. If you can prove to me with a good argument and some irrefutable facts (just like i tried to do with you), id happily except that im just in for the mad rantings. I dont cling to small minded beliefs when the truth is right on front of my face. Read 1984 if you havent already its not in the top 10 of nearly every greatest books list since it was written for no reason. But your american and ignorant (and happy to be) so your not gona educate yourself on anything you'd much rather have your small minded opinions than know the truth.
I know that the truth is not either one of the following:
1. It is ALL America's fault.
2. It is ALL everyone else's fault.
The truth is somewhere in the middle. Some of the problem lies with American foreign policy and some of it lies with the rest of the world. You want me to believe that it is All America's fault. And then you call me an idiot if I don't agree. And I laugh at your logic. Especially since you're supposed to be a scientist ;)
You know you should really think before you construct your arguments. I really shouldnt have to point this out to you but nowhere will you find me blaming America for all of the world problems.Again, thats a riculous proposition.You Americans always trying to simplify everything so you can fit it into your tiny little narrow minded view of how the world is and how it works.
I disagree that its somewhere in the middle, in reality its alot more on americas side, thats what you need to accept.
Now ive called you an idiot for the simple reason that you've avioded actually debating i.e. looking at info. on various wars and polices of your government.
Now i wanted you to send me your version of events (which you will think is correct) then i would have tried to deconstruct it (i.e. show you how it is false).I also sent you info. regarding this but you just dismissed it as propaganda without even looking at it. WHY DONT YOU TELL ME WHATS NOT PROPAGANDA SO? I mean everythings a little bit biased in some direction (except wikileaks) but i have a sneaking suspicion that the news you recieve is so far from the truth you might aswell be reading a roll of toilet just after you wipe your ass with it (and you had a red hot indian the night before). THATS MY OPINION WHICH YOU'VE REFUSED TO CHALLENGE ME ON.Thats why i called you an idiot, for sticking to your small minded beliefs.
Right, ill point out again, America is (RELATIVELY SPEAKING) directly or indirectly(this ones a lot more complex) responsible for the a much alrge proportion of death and destruction over the last 50-60yrs than most other countries, at least based on currnt info. Now, you might go, thats not true. And, im not saying your goverment is at fault for all of it, in most cases its the multi-national corporations and the IMF who are all basically american and own your government anyway.
Now ive acknowledged before that America is far from the sole participant in all this death, destuction, carnage, injustice.... etc. FAR FROM IT.
European powers have also been complicit in much of it but you have to realise your country leads the way.Its ruthless in its persuit of power and resources.What countries do to there own people is a different debate(i.e. China, Libya now).
Why do you think you live such a comfortable life, why do think americans have the highest satndard of living in the world, why do think you are the highest emitter of GHGs (per capita) in the world with the next highest country bearly 1/3rd of your emssions, why do think your government has invaded so many countries put in power SOOOOOOOOO many dictators, funded porxy armies, raped resources the world over, destroyed entire countries with explosive (Vietnam, Afghanistan, and others), caused so much starvation and hardship to so many.
OMG. Are you still on this tired, old topic? We have been debating this to death for days and not made any headway. Maybe we should move on to some other topics like abortion or time travel. For example, I am 100% for women to have a choice as to whether or not to abort. That way, hopefully, someday, in the future, I can go back in time and convince your mother to abort your ass ;)
Im completely pro choice so i guess thats something we can agree on. And your little time travel travel jibe isnt far from the grandfather paradox.If you know what thats is.
The grandfather paradox is a proposed paradox of time travel first described (in this exact form) by the science fiction writer René Barjavel in his 1943 book Le Voyageur Imprudent (The Imprudent Traveller).[1] The paradox is this: suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveler's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveler's parents (and by extension the traveler himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have traveled back in time after all, which means the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveler would have been conceived allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox. (Taken from Wikipedia)
OK, so what you are saying is that I don't have to convince your mother to abort your ass, I can just shoot your father before he impregnates her with you ;)
BTW, do you have any younger siblings or did your parents quickly realized they had screwed up ;)
Ya my parents had a couple more sprogs but they realised quite quickly based on the way i turned out that the best course of action was to club them to death as soon as they squirted their way out of my mothers vagina. One quick bash right on the noggin. Then we roasted them on a spit after sataying them in some ball sweat of course. Dam fine eaten.
I am interested because usually (not always, but usually) the first born child doesn't hold your ideals for long and I was hoping that you have an older sibling who could sit you down and set you straight ;)
Dont you care that the opinion you hold so dear could be completely false. I mean really why woulkd be debating these issues if you didnt think that you were correct and if you think your correct then why are you so reluctant for someone to put it to the test.
Then i have to ask why do you bother debating on these issues that are serious by anyones standard if you dont care. I mean really it makes no sense. I can understand coming onto this site to get laugh kill somtime etc. but why debate these issues if you dont care. And i cant comprehend that you dont care that you maybe completely false, i dont get that, how can you not care even a lttle bit that everthing you may thing is one way os aactaully the other.
These issues are only serious to young people who haven't lived long enough to realize that these problems have been going on since the beginning of time. If we haven't found a solution yet, then it is because these problems are inherent in human nature.
Would you debate the nature of a lion? Would you argue that the zebras would have it easier if lions would just stop hunting them? Or would you consider that to be a waste of time since the problem has to do the nature of lions? You could kill all of the lions but then the hyenas would take their place. Maybe you would try to educate the lions by showing them youTube clips and articles you find on the internet. Maybe even quote authors who have written lots of books and are quoted by many. If only the lions would look at the truth ;)
Again, man the anology is very weak. Take my word for it i know quite a bit about human naute and futility of standing up for these.Its funny Noma Chomsky was asked more or less the same question. I remeber it well becasue i was just after reading excellent book by Joh Gray called 'Straw Dogs.' Its an excellent book and although it has some major philosphical flaws it but it makes an extremely convincing case for the fultility of humanist ideals.Seriously you'd love it, you've thrown that human nature jibe at me 3 times now and this book is in keeping with that whole philosophy.
Anyway im not going to repeat Chomsky's answer here, if your interested in how your human nature rationalization can be proved wrong you find it for yourself.I strongly doubt you will though, i think it gives you great comfort to label it and then just take a side(whether it be the right or wrong one).
Hmmmm, your argument reminds me of a little joke. A man asks a woman, would you sleep with me for one million dollars and she replies, "Of course!" He then asks her, "How about $20." and she says, "No, what kind of woman do you think I am?" and he says, "I thought we had already established that. We are now haggling over price."
You see, you claim that many people die due to American policy and you are passionate about saving people. Except that if we were to dig deeper, we would find that you are probably OK with killing pedophiles or murderers or some other group you disagree with. Which means that you and I are just haggling over where to draw the line. ;)
Actually Joe thats not a joke, thats a famous quote by the playwright George Bernard Shaw. Now look you might think that we a haggling over price or the line but i dont.
Murderers and pedophiles have commited serious offences against other people and many are repeat offenders and are a danger to society. Whether i'd condone killing them or not, honestly im not sure, im not completely against the death penalty.It really depends on the person and the individual set of circumstances vut i definitely dont take it lightly.
Now i am talking about people who are guitly of nothing except being born in an undeveloped part of the world, which is being exploited. Theres a very clear distinction between the two, call it a line if you want, in my mind its a pretty be fuckin line.
OK, so let's say that you want to save the human race from itself. One way would be to support space research (building a space station or a lunar station or a Mars station, etc.). That way if we ever blow ourselves up (or even if nature tries to kill us with Global Warming or a space meteor) the human race would still survive somewhere in space.
But the problem is that I watch the news and from what I've seen, the human race is not worth saving ;)
Yes but your argument is hinged on the premise that another more benign higher power (be it alien , supernatual or otherwise) thats reached a much higher state of conciousness, awareness and civilisation exists somewhere else.
I can't say with any degree of certainty whether this is the case or not.
The equations for calculating the probability of alien life existing in the universe seem to indicate that somewhere there is other form of life, but what form this is in is unknown (may not be interesting i.e. complex). Again, these equations i went through(there easy if your any bit good at math at all), i cant remember what there called but its quite easy to use them to obtain a value for the probability of finding alien life. Its based on the size of the known universe and the what we know about it. The models use the info. to extrapolate outwards into the areas we have relatively little knowledge of.
Anyway, thee still are no gaurantees, i trust in the maths but there are plenty of scientific argument that can refute the simple result i spoke about above.My piont is if we really are the only concious lifefroms in our known existen, in my opnion that makes us very valuable indeed.
We can debate this from no. of angles be they scientific or otherwise i really dont think we'll nail anything donw though, the argument is just too vast and has too many sweeping implications for a variety of forms of human knowledge.
.My piont is if we really are the only concious lifefroms in our known existen, in my opnion that makes us very valuable indeed.
My dog is conscious.... when he's not sleeping. And he's a life form. If there were no humans, the animals wouldn't have to worry about becoming extinct due to human activity.
If I was the last human on Earth and I had to pick between you and my dog for companionship, I'd pick my dog. He agrees with everything I say ;)
I think we both know human conciousness is a little bit more unique. We've evolved the ability to question our own existnece and to manipulate the world around us to great advantage. Now id be the first to acknowledge how primitve we still are. Were just out of th efuckin jungle and many of our voluntary actions and responses are no more the results of free will than those of the animals from which we've ascended.Were still gripped wuite tightly by the forces of our own evolution but were more free than any other animal, thats what makes us very special. We are the only known lifeforms that possess the ability rise beyond our own evolution (at least in certain instances).
Also, were animals we like to think were not but thats exactly what we are. All the other animals will still have to worry about going extinct if we go extinct the onyl difference is nature will decide (our influence will be gone with use). Actually since were derived from nature technically everything is working as it should anyway but thats a very cynical view.
Id think you'd chose me, when it comes right down to it, an animal cannot compare to the companion ship of human.Humans like to challenged (some more than others (your in the other in casse you can't guess)).
So do i but thats a very different kind of freedom, im takking about the ability to resist the temptations of a woman lets say if she was your best friends wife or girlfriend.
You see a dog or any other animal doesnt have prescience to realise anything about previous mates, its completely constrained by its own biology, when it sees a potential mate, assuming they are both attracted to one antoher they fornicate and reproduce, theres nothing deeper involved.
Fucking hell man dont you get it, im drawing a clear distinction between aniamls and human, what i said was to clarify your statemejnt about your dog. We do have something quite unique. I already acknowledged that were anials but you seem intent on reduing us to the same level as dogs or whatever. There are big differences, we've evoloved the capacity (just the capacity) to rise above our own evolution. I'm not saying we have, im saying we are capable. Read some of Richard Dawkins Books (ive read most of his best) or Dan Dennett the famous American cognitive scientist and philosopher.
You see again becasue it doesnt fit into your view of things i.e. people exploiting people is (and everything that flows from it) natural so theres no piont in trying to change anything or even beleiving change is possible.
Fuckin hell man if everyone though like you i dont think there be Black or Gay rights movements would ever have happened . Also in repsonse to a previous comment about eth sixties, yes they did accomplish alot actually. Maybe not everything, the ideals and aspirations associated with that era were quite extreme but eth real thing you need to understand about the sixties is for the first time people were asking real questions of their governments actions and many great things flowed from that e.g. the above movements, green movements, the pull out of saigon etc, etc..
Do you know how many GI's rose up against their governemnt based on what they knew was happening in vietnam(many were imprisoned for life or worse), or how many just refused to engage in combat when they were in the country (e.g. move in on enemy territory). I bet you dont, you should look into it.Its quite unbeleivable what actually wnet on, seriuolsy if you havent heard of this i gaurantee you, you will be shocked. A massive proportion of the army just began to disobey orders and defect (many the grunts who are the cannon fodder)
A large part of the reason they bombed the country so much was becasue they simply couldnt rely on the men to fight there dispicable war.
Things change when a specific group is tired of the crap and decides to actively change it. Talking about it with people who do not share your world view solves nothing.
You only like that "philosopher" guy because he supports your world view. You don't like my Iraqi friends because they don't support your view.
What are talking about. Listen to yourself. I dont agree with "that philosopher guy" on everything, in fact i disagree with him on a great deal. But im not even gona get into it and the same goes for Richard Dawkins.
I dont what view your Iraqis friends hold or whther i support it. I honestly think if i met them face to face although we may not agree on everything, i fairly confident we'd find plenty of common ground.
My original piont about your Iraqis friends is they dont speak for all of Iraq. Look they obviuosly havent been hit as hard by the war as most people have in that country, ive read from very reliable sources that most Iraqis are extremely disatisfied with America as they know the US doesnt have their best interests in mind. They want them to pull out of THEIR country. Now just because a bunch of Iraqis that are obviusoly a lot more well off then most in the conutry disagree with that staement, it doesnt make it false. The fact that your friends dont live in abject poverty doesnt mean that most in that country dont. I'm sure if you asked some of the elites in Egpyt prior to the revolution what their opinion was of the whole situation they would have responded by saying, fine just fine. It doesnt make it true.
Note: I'm not intentionally trying to compare your Iraqis friends to Egpytian elites
I've read from a very reliable source that most Iraqis are extremely satisfied with America. America has freed them from an oppressive government and now they are free to rebuild their lives. The majority of Iraqis are Shiites. Saddam was a Sunni. Saddam oppressed the Shiite out the Shiites. Americans are not running around killing Shiites, Sunnis are.
You don't speak for all Iraqis when you say that they prefer being ruled by Saddam over their current situation. Well, except maybe the Sunnis; they prefer the Saddam days ;)
I know they probaly didnt like Saddam my piont is you view what your country has done as correct, morally right and justified. I dont know how you see that, they went in there for oil, heres hypothetical question, if Iraq biggest material export was rubber do you think your country would have invaded. Come one man. they dont give a fuck about Iraq, and thats why i beleive the country is no better off now than then.
The reason i think things were mildly better is cause they had very good health, education and gernal infrostructure (you know before your country destroyed them, again this is a fact, to deny it is to deny reality, and yes theres only one realtiy im afraid) which would have sowed the seeds of revolution eventuall. It should have been left down to the Iraqis people to depose Saddam.
Why dont do something about saudi arabia, thats at least as bad as Saddam regime was, maybe even worse. Why did they support all those brutal dictators in the middle east when they knew full well what they were doing to their own people.
Where exactly did I say that it was correct, morally right and justified? Here's what I don't get. You claim to be an engineer and a scientist and yet you go around making all kinds of wild ASS accusations and ASSumptions and you some across as an ASS.
Firstly, i write these farly fast so im sorry if there not as air tight and coherent as you'd like.I throw down a few opinions and facts as quick as i can so i can get some real work done.Secondly, i know you didnt explicitly state that is was "correct, morally right and justified" but you dont need to when you make statements like:
America has freed them from an oppressive government and now they are free to rebuild their lives
That says it all.I mean seriously that right there if find baffling, as does anyone currently located outside America. Now i except that i may come accross as a bit if an ass, if i denied that id be deluding myself. But its really hard not to when your continuously faced with that bullshit (above) that you know to be completely false. if you would just look up some of the info. thats out there on this topic you'd know that statement to be false.
Fucking hell man just look at you countries track record, what does tell you. Actually dont answer that, your answer will just frustrate me and ill look like alot more of an ass when i respond.
Maybe you think it does Joe, but i dont think it does. Lets look at whats wrong with your statement shall we.
"America has freed them from an oppressive government and now they are free to rebuild their lives"
"America has freed them from an oppressive government", yes thats true. They were largely respobsible for the collapse of the regime, ill give you that. But what has it been replaced with, i admit you cant call it an oppressive government (yet) but you cant really call it anything the country is so fucked up at the moment but lets not get into that were focusing on your statement.
"they are free" now this i profoundly disagree with. They're not free. Not even close, you might as well have called them "free" under Saddam. Look at the facts, a massive foreign military currently occupies their country, that military definitely doesnt have the best interests of the people at heart, its building strategic bases and your corporations are extracting its oil, that military has been proved to be very hostile (at best) to the indigenous population, again i refer you to the war crimes exposed by Wikileaks that show how mistreatment, brutality and sometime killings are being prepetrated by your army. Now again im not saying every soldier in the army is commiting these acts im just saying they've become very frequent. Go check it out the documents, why do think think they want Julian Assange so bad.The wikileaks documents prove that Iraqis are being treated quite badly and that this has become routine in many areas of the country.
"to rebuild their lives" Ya rebuild their country after you completely destroyed it. Its infrostructure is completely and utterly fucked (causing INNUMERABLE deaths over the last 20yrs and suffering that hasnt even been documented).Remember prior to gulf 1 they had the most developed infrostructure in the middle east. So once America has extracted a large enouigh amount of oil to withdraw their ground troops (i already stated the bases will remain) and a puppet goervnment that wont rock the boat(like Mubarak, Ben Ali etc. etc.) and probably a corrupt police force (again, like Mubaraks etc. etc.) you may be brazen enough to get away with a blind ignorant statement like that, but until then "THEY ARE FREE" is complete and utter BULLSHIT.
Also, the bombs you've dropped on that country has caused environmental damage that just isnt fixable. Cases of cancer are sky rocketing and deformed babies are being born in areas where you dropped your bombs that contain many heavy metals i.e. Uranium traces, Lead etc. etc. (This is true of Afghanistan also) Rich ancient forests that survived all the previous fighting (even the Russians) used by taliban fighters have been leveled and it seems unlikely they'll ever grow back.Again, i dont expect you to take my word for it look this stuff up on a reliable source (NOT AMERICAN).
You might think i look like an ass cause im stating the kind of truth your not used to hearing but that statement of your definitely doesnt stand.Its horse shit, your just too blind to see that.
Ya thats it Joe make a joke, you know im right, your statement that you tried to prove was correct was proved to be bulldhit, so just make a joke cause this isnt serious for you anyway.
You say im a pussy, im not a man etc. etc. well at least i know how admit when ive been proved wrong.
Dude, you're a fanatic! No one can prove you wrong. Your mind is dead set that America is the great beast and out president is probably the Anti-Christ ;)
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you think that because you've been exposed to so much shit about your country never being in the wrong that when someone says otherwise there automatically a fanatic.
Also, i take offense to the remark that i cant be proved wrong, how the fuck would you know. When i consider how many times i asked you to try to prove me wrong and you just sent back some stupid ignirant joke. Take my word for it my friend, i have been proved many times on serious issues and i accept it and learned from it.Im not some headstrong maniac who has to be right, if i think im right ill defen my position tooth and nail until someone proves me wrong but once they do i accept it. I actuall perceive myself to be a fairly humble person but i can only respond to what is thrown at me and im afraid to tell you that most of what you have thrown has been grade A shit mixed with insults and bad jokes. Your problem is you think when you throw out a statement with nothing to back it up i should automatically think ive been proved wrong. Why not try sending me some links that you beleive to be the truth, reliable links that you base your warped opinions on. I gaurantee you i i think they are correct i will say so and if i dont i will be able to tell you exactly why i dont and give you very credible reasons why i dont.
I know theres no sinister plot, the things i describe, actually im not even bother. All your get from me from now on is the kind of shit you've been sending me from day one. Ok, here goes:
I think that america is evil, i think Isreal is gona use nucs on turkey tommorow. I dont need to base it on factual evidence because your clearly just a propagandist i can dismiss. Anything you beleive is obviously wrong becuase i dont beleive what you beleive.
No he'd say its a ountry founded on ideals which its never managed to live up to. He'd say its foreign policy is more hypoctrical tha n any other coutnry on earth, he say its comppletely self-interest in way that is extremely harmful to every other nation, but your right he wouldnt evil and neither would i, thats ridiculous.
I dont think America is evil, i never said anything like that, to be honest i dont even really beleive in things being evil or good i beleive every possesses both, but i digress, if dont think you want to hear my philosophical beleifs.
OK, so let me say back to you what I know believe to be your philosophical beliefs based on what you just said.
America is not evil. All countries have good points and bad points. You just want to harp on America's bad points, not on any other country's bad points, and not give America any credit for the good it has done around the world. Is that pretty much it? ;)
America has done very little good around the world, now this argument started because you disagreed that your great country could ever be guilty of anything well im telling you that there guilty of more than all the others.
More guilty than ALL the others, huh? And I suppose you have the data (read numbers, and it better not be one million ;) to back up this claim? Or are you just speculating..... AGAIN ;)
Well can you name of another country that has been responsible for the deaths of 1 million people over the alst 10 years. I mean i know theres been conflicts and civil wars in Darfut and Sudan and other places but very few of those actually invoved a more powerful foreign country invaded a much weaker one, and none of these sectarian or civils wars have resulted in the deaths of 1 million. I mean think about it, can you name any other country responsible for such actions, and if not, do really need any further proof.
Firstly that conflict didnt really involve a foriegn oppressive power implementing its military might, ok. Thas why in my previous statement i restricted is to non-civil wars/ sectarian conflicts. Thats exactly what the BAlkans was. Now i dont condone in any way what went on there and i actually agree that foreign intervention was necessary but in the way it was actually conducted. Again, i refer you to noam chomskys summary of that conflict, hes not overly anit-american he just explains the moitvation of Western power in that conlict AND you can be sure its very different to the way it was portrayed at the time.
Also, i said the last 10 yrs, which is roughly the time the Iraq war has been going on. The Balkans has been a peaceful place for the last ten years Joe so maybe you should go back and actually read what i wrote the next time you try to discredit me, OK
TAKEN FROM WIKIPEDIA:
Recent history and current status (2000 to present)Since around 2000, all Balkan countries are friendly towards the EU and the United States.
Greece has been a member of the European Union since 1981 and of NATO since 1952. Greece is also a member of the Eurozone and the Western European Union. Slovenia and Cyprus have been EU members since 2004, and Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU in 2007. Turkey initially applied in 1963 and as of late 2005 accession negotiations have begun, although analysts believe 2015 is the earliest date the country can join the Union due to the plethora of economic and social reforms it has to complete. Croatia and Macedonia also received candidate status in 2005, while the other Balkan countries have expressed a desire to join the EU but at some date in the future.
On October 17, 2007 Croatia became a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council for the 2008-2009 term. Croatia has since joined NATO, along with Albania, on April 1, 2009, and both countries also seek admission in the EU in 2009.
In 2004 Bulgaria, Romania and Slovenia also became members of NATO.
In 2006, Montenegro separated from the state of Serbia and Montenegro, also making Serbia a separate state. There were fears that this separation would lead to regional instability, but so far this has not been the case.
Kosovo declared its independence from Serbia on February 17, 2008.
i dont condone in any way what went on there and i actually agree that foreign intervention was necessary but in the way it was actually conducted.
So greater minds than yours determined how to conduct the intervention but your way would have been way superior. You're a pretty arrogant ass hole. Oh wait, it was N.C.'s idea. Maybe we can elect him as World President. He's so fucking smart, writing books, getting interviews and yet no Government has asked for his opinion on how to do things and no news organization has said, "Wait...., what would N.C. do?" until after the fact.
I meant to write "but not in the way it was actually conducted."
You think im an arogant asshole, look at what your acusing me of, firstly i never claimed i had a better idea of how to conduct such an intervention, OK. So dotn try and fuckin insinuate that i did just to make my piont look worthless. If i had said i would be more than deserving of your "arrogant ass hole" comment. Now i dont claim to have known how to conduct that war just in the same way that i dont claim to know what is best for Libya or what the Nato forces should be doing in there. WHAT I CLAIM TO KNOW IS THE FOLLOWING (BTW i dont think it makes me an arrogant person to say this, if anything it makes me perceptive);
Nato forces are not in Libya to help the Libyan people achieve democracy, if that was the case they would have done the sme when the Yemeny peopel were being slaughtered by their US backed leader last Friday, Oh what did you not hear about that, oh. So FOX and CNN let you down on that one did they, what about when the Saudi army (armed by the US) was called into Bahrain to quell an actual revolution (not a civil war like Libya) and slaughtered the protestors, wait did you not hear about that either Joe, Jesus looks like my anti-american leftist propaganda is telling me things your news isnt telling you.
Actually its funny many people have suggested the idea of making Noam Chomsky president, so that idea isn't as far fetched as you make out. He's been asked by countless people and his response is always the same "my first act as president would be to resign." You see he doesnt beleive in the defunct system you have operating currently. Therefore, theres no piont in someone like him trying to make a system that has a inherent malfunction in it, work.
"yet no Government has asked for his opinion on how to do things and no news organization"
Actually your completely wrong his opinion is widely sought after by many governments accross the world, just not your government (as he is considered a paria shunned by your intellectual community for not agreeing with your capitalist imperialist model).But if you knew anything about him you'd know what your typing is complete shit. Get a clue, investigate the man before you make outlandish claims likfe that, dont you realise you have no idea what your talking about.
OMG! I would never trade our system for your socialist crap system. If you want Chomsky so much, make him YOUR president. I'm sure we would be more than happy to deport his ass ;)
Your an fuckin idiot you know that, Chomsky isnt a socislist and to label him as such is highly insluting to him and even to me. Your an ignorant idiot who doesnt have clue what hes tlaking about. The system of government chomsky thinks is best is democractic govenment, but he states that it is a idela system that can never work in practice, he proposes a system that strivese towards democracy, its called AnarchoSyndicalsim. Look it up before shoot your mouth off you ignorant fuck.
he just explains the moitvation of Western power in that conlict AND you can be sure its very different to the way it was portrayed at the time.
So when you finally find a girl friend who's willing to pet your dick, you'll be like, "Oh, I'm in love. This is love!" And someone else can explain, "He just want his dick stroked."
There are many ways to spin anything and N.C. is good at spinning and you're too stupid to realize it.
Thats a pretty grim assessment of any relationship, why do you have a wife or girlfriend, and if so, are you only with them to get your dick stroked as you so eloquently put it.
Yes there are many ways to spin the truth, everyone uses the truth to their own advantage and any opinion is acceptable in a certain context, im not saying you should look at his opinion and bow down before your new God, im saying he present facts that are intentionally omitted from the information you receive. Are you trying tell me the aim of the international force currently in Libya is to help the Libyan people.
Ok, you think hes spinning the truth, give me one good reason he would spin the truth. Do you not realise what the man has sacrificed in order to tell the truth, he could have been one of the most famous intellectuals in your country has he not opposed the amerrican agenda, most the support he gets in your country is underground and independent support.
He presents the facts, then he makes his conclusions based on them, if you ever studied him you know why he has soo much respect, but agin i dont expect you to.
"In order to sell more books, make more money and get quoted more ;)"
Why do think the man would give a fuck about this, if you knew anything about him you'd know his moral philosophy determines his actions, your claim would only be valid if he had accepted his place in the hieracrhy of the american intellectual elite, can you not see that.
