This scripture prophesy also have a cluster of prophesies that would need to be fullfilled for each to be fulfilled.
So prophetic intrusion by God in His Word, takes predictions to prophesy, which is predictions based on possibility, to prophesy - pre-written history, which is complicated.
But it also knits prophesies together in clusters like cells, building history.
Complicating even miracles of prophesy to clusters of prophesies ALL needing to be fullfilled for the next in a cluster.
If you really look at prophesy, and realize it's difference from "predictions"
Then you realize prophesy is like layers, with many prophesies knit together like cells all dependent on each other for each individual fulfillment, I think it's a greater feat than cells mutating and accidentally on purpose resulting in intellegent design!
My argument is God has proven Himself through history, as the Bible was being written.
Can you show me how it's not detailed in prophesy with an accuracy as if history was knit together, as your cells in evolution?
And can you show me any historical documentations of the Bible that is riddled with inaccuracies?
Another Prophesy:
Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion
(Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10).
Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 13th power.)
Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 13th power.)
If you follow a religion, you are creating a system whereby any act of selflessness is an act towards a selfish goal of eternal bliss of some kind.
This means that every time you are selfless, another person is being selfish to accept your selfless act. This in turn means you have ensure they are more likely to go to hell or to suffer in whatever way your religion states that bad people do
Christianity: Being selfless sends you to heaven. Being selfish (accepting selflessness) sends you to hell.
Buddhism: Karma. Your karmic debt increases the more you allow others to be good to you. The true Buddhist is willing to suffer very much for the sake of reaching zero karmic debt upon death (doesn't go into negatives, so it's very easy to gain debt) Only those with zero upon death will go to nirvana others will be reborn as some creature (goes as basic as bacterium).
Hinduism: Dharma. Unlike Karma, can go into negatives. The lower your Dharmic debt upon death, the 'richer' or 'better off' you are reincarnated. Hindus can only be reincarnated up or down the food chain if they have positive Dharmic debt upon death (up) or negative (down). If they abused humans in particular, they will be reborn as a victim of the exact form of abuse or something very close to its severity.
Judaism: Hell same as Christianity and Islam but unlike Christianity and Islam, in Judaism there is no heaven. You are either in purgatory (basically obsolete) or in hell until you have 'suffered enough' and then get the reward of actually dying.
Islam: Identical afterlife system to Christianity, differs in the exact rewards in heaven and also in what gets you there.
Jainism: In Jainism, there is no hell. Unlike Buddhism and Hinduism there is no 'punishment' for being evil. Instead there is some magical eternal gain you get from being good that you simply should strive for, it's almost their currency so to speak. You can't spend it though... Once you do evil you have given up your magical bliss and should try your best to gain it again.
Sikhism: Identical system to Hinduism but in Sikhism it only applies to human beings and you can't be reborn as an animal.
Well I can't speak for any other religion, but our example of Hinduism is wrong. Hinduism does not say in any book that "you will be punished for sinning, so don't sin" or "you will be rewarded for doing good, so do good". It simply says you shall sow what you reap and then lists 10 attributes of a person that makes them better.
Unlike Christianity, Hinduism never says to be selfless and unlike Islam, nowhere does it say to donate money to the poor. This is not because we are selfish, it is because we understand that if everyone looks out for themselves and their families and is independent, there will be less problems. We are not trying to please a God, we are trying to partake in actions that benefit us and make us happy.
Why shouldn't we steal and lie then? Well, there is nothing that says thou shall not steal in HInduism. However, it does stay that stealing and lying hurt you in the long run because you will have to carry the emotional weight of each lie and theft, which may seem to be intangible and nonexistent but will eventually ruin your life.
Also where does it say that Humans will become animals or be reborn as victims of the abuse they dealt out in their past life? I can explain this if you find an example.
Those sources are interpretations. Find me the vedic verse that says I will be born as a literal plant if I do bad, and I should do good karma so I don't end up a plant or animal or untouchable.
And before I get sidetracked, let me address your single argument by simply quoting a verse from the Bhagvad Gita which proves that in true Hinduism, you are not worrying about how much Dharma points you have, but that your actions are dharmic.
Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana,
You have the right to perform your actions,but you are not entitled to the fruits of the actions.
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani
Do not let the fruit be the purpose of your actions, and therefore you won’t be attached to not doing your duty.
But then a natural question comes up, "Won't this detachment from desired result kill the motivation of Karma?" That is where these myths about becoming a flower or a pig in your next life pop up. They are created to provide motivation. However, as you said, they make people selfish and get caught up in their results instead of in their actions.
That is not true Hinduism.
Now you may think that even though I'm saying all this stuff, it must be some offshoot of mainstream Hinduism. You are very wrong and a victim of ignorance. the textbooks that teach about Hinduism are written by a Western, British perspective. Our rituals and mythology are too complicated and symbolic for the Westerners, who used to think of us as savages, to understand. Therefore, they tried to simplify them and dismiss them as idol worship and believing in ghosts/spirits.
I am in close contact with the President of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (world hindu council) of America. He comes over every month to have a discussion with my friends. I was wondering about stuff like reincarnation which I had trouble believing. He, along with the late president of the worldwide VHP, taught me about real Hinduism. If you have any questions, I will try to answer them.
Hinduism isn't like Christianity. There is no Bible or unquestionable text to go by. You make it up as you go along. Stop pretending you have any authority, I know more about the religion than you do.
We do the same. What part did we make up? By the way, I'm not trying to convert you or anything like Saintnow tries every time he posts. People of all religions can be dharmic and Hindu. I bet you already are. I just want to understand what your views of my religion are and debate them based on what I know.
Buddhism: Karma. Your karmic debt increases the more you allow others to be good to you. The true Buddhist is willing to suffer very much for the sake of reaching zero karmic debt upon death (doesn't go into negatives, so it's very easy to gain debt) Only those with zero upon death will go to nirvana others will be reborn as some creature (goes as basic as bacterium).
mostly this is wrong. buddhhists do eschew wealth but have no problem in allowing others to do good deeds for them. Why would they have their alms bowls if they did?
also..they don't advocate suffering or deprivation. the buddha hisself, Siddarth Guatama, tried the deprivation thing when he travelled with the asthetic monks after he left his palace. He got so malnourished he almost starved and so found it wasnt the way. that there is a MIDDLE PATH between depriving and greed and opulence. THIS is what the Buddhists advise.
And the FOur Noble Truths say NOTHING about needing to suffer. Nor does the 8-fold Path.
last.....Buddhists dont believe in transmigration...thats coming back as a bug or an animal. that is the Hindus and the Buddha rejected that doctrine. they believe you only can return as a human. and one who DOES get released from Samsara (the endless cycle on Earth) and can get Nirvana, will sometimes still choose to stay behind and help others. they are called Bodhisatvas.
you should know more about this before claiming you know the religion. sounds to me like you have a lot of learning to do about Buddhism. i can help.
The only one you got incorrect would be Christianity. In Christianity, its grace through faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The acts that follow come from being saved through faith. Also, what would you say you mean by selflessness and selfishness?
Even outside of religion, No action is truly Altruistic. It's a numbers game, If I save a close relative, I'm still basically passing on my genetics more than if I don't save that member. If I spread my excess resources, I gain favor with my community. attention and a flow of chemicals saying "I'm A "good" person"
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Religion serves to strengthen ever present morality. if a God knows what you do in the dark, then no evil will take place to any person who truely believes that God, (Or Big brother) is watching.
All I know is that the God in the old testament is a wrathful God and the God in the new testament is a kinder, gentler, God. I also know that the Jews claim to be the chosen people and Christians appear to have hijacked the Jewish religion, added Jesus into the mix and claimed that anyone can be saved, not just the chosen. So..., I wouldn't bet my life on it. ;)
The God in the old testament wanted sacrifices. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He flooded the world.
The God in the new testament was all about turning the other cheek (the cheeky monkey ;). And love thy neighbor and forgive transgressions.
The old testament says that the Jews are the chosen people.
The Christians took the old testament and added the new testament. Isn't one of the 10 commandments something about adding to the word of God? Christians also claim that the only path to salvation is through Jesus. They seem to always be asking, "Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior? He paid for your sins with His blood. Your His bitch now."
Why did He do that? He was out of control. It was like one of those Islamic father who kill their daughter and call it an "Honor Killing."
So God never has any logical reason for doing anything? Only emotional reasons?
What evidence? Uh..., the bible. The old testament is effectively the Jewish Torah.
Was this in response to the new testament question? If so, what does this have to do with the new testament?
Why is it an issue? What if you're Jewish?
Was this in reference to the salvation thing? If so, Jewish people that don't accept Christ as their lord and savior, they won't be saved. If we were the ones that separated ourselves from God, why should we be the ones to determine how the issue is fixed?
The Jews got a raw deal. I mean, at first, God was like, "You dudes are like my chose people. Here's your bible and 10 commandments to go along with it." Then He's like, "Screw that. Only people who believe in the late JC are like my new chosen people. Oh, and there's more, new, bible crap to go along with the old bible crap." ;)
What evidence? Uh..., the bible. The old testament is effectively the Jewish Torah.
was a response to this:
The Christians took the old testament and added the new testament.
What evidence do you have for this?
So..., yeah dude. The Christians were all like, "We'll take that!" and then they added the New Testament to it. I mean, if God is like such a big now it all, why didn't He give the Jews the entire bible from the beginning? It's like a movie man! God's all like, "Here's part one and..., oh..., wait..., I forgot..., here's part 2." ;)
The Jews have a case. How do they know that the Christians didn't like just make up the New Testament? I mean, how do we know that the devil wasn't like, "Oh crap! God has a bible and chosen people! I better get in on the action." So he tried to screw people up by coming up with a new bible version and a new set of chosen people. And when you think about it... it kinda makes sense. i mean, the Jews don't go door to door looking for new recruits but there are at least 2 Christians group that do and if you ask me..., that's pretty wicked. Satanic, hellish, wicked.
I'll combine both responses you had to make things a little bit easier.
The Jews got a raw deal. I mean, at first, God was like, "You dudes are like my chose people. Here's your bible and 10 commandments to go along with it." Then He's like, "Screw that. Only people who believe in the late JC are like my new chosen people. Oh, and there's more, new, bible crap to go along with the old bible crap."
What was it that the Israelites were supposed to do as God's chosen people?
So..., yeah dude. The Christians were all like, "We'll take that!" and then they added the New Testament to it. I mean, if God is like such a big now it all, why didn't He give the Jews the entire bible from the beginning? It's like a movie man! God's all like, "Here's part one and..., oh..., wait..., I forgot..., here's part 2."
Would the Jews have been able to make sense of everything that happened had they received the entire bible? Even if they had the entire story of what would happen, what evidence do you have that they would have changed their ways?
The Jews have a case. How do they know that the Christians didn't like just make up the New Testament? I mean, how do we know that the devil wasn't like, "Oh crap! God has a bible and chosen people! I better get in on the action." So he tried to screw people up by coming up with a new bible version and a new set of chosen people. And when you think about it... it kinda makes sense. i mean, the Jews don't go door to door looking for new recruits but there are at least 2 Christians group that do and if you ask me..., that's pretty wicked. Satanic, hellish, wicked.
If the bible is considered to be a historical book, then it follows that there has to be other people that talked about various things that are in it whether it be a person, event, or whatever right? Some of the more common extra biblical writers that are mentioned are Tacitus, Suetonius, and Josephus. Of course there are more than just these three, these are just some of the more famous ones. Also, were the collection of books referred to as the bible in those days? Ya there was the torah and the other books that followed, but were those books referred to as the old testament part of the bible or even part of a bible?
What was it that the Israelites were supposed to do as God's chosen people?
Lord it over everybody. "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah we are God's chosen people and you're not. Want to be one of the chosen? Psych!"
Would the Jews have been able to make sense of everything that happened had they received the entire bible? Even if they had the entire story of what would happen, what evidence do you have that they would have changed their ways?
It would have been viewed as prophecy. More material for KNHav ;)
Aside from the Torah, the other books were not considered part of the bible because there was no bible. The bible came together centuries later when Constantine became a Christian and told his holy men to write the stuff down. The holy men then debated which books should make up the "bible."
Lord it over everybody. "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah we are God's chosen people and you're not. Want to be one of the chosen? Psych!"
What evidence do you have for this?
It would have been viewed as prophecy.
Same question here. What evidence do you have for this?
Aside from the Torah, the other books were not considered part of the bible because there was no bible. The bible came together centuries later when Constantine became a Christian and told his holy men to write the stuff down. The holy men then debated which books should make up the "bible."
You're right when you say that there was no bible until after all the stuff happened and people made it. I would have to ask what you mean by debated though
The Old Testament tells of Him on every page. The veil will be lifted from the Jews soon and they will know Jesus the Messiah. A remnant of Jews will see Him.
The Bible explains all of this!
John 5
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41 I do not receive glory from men;
42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Maybe I can do what I do during football season. Wait until the last few minutes of the game, determine who is going to win, and claim that that was the team I wanted to win ;)
Its not so safe nor so predictable. It is God who reveals. If you are not open to have Him revealed other than fire insurance, He will let you believe according to your own will.
Its not so safe nor so predictable. It is God who reveals. If you are not open to have Him revealed other than fire insurance, He will let you believe according to your own will.
Its not so safe nor so predictable. It is God who reveals. If you are not open to have Him revealed other than fire insurance, He will let you believe according to your own will.
God condemns people who deceive themselves. Jesus warns and commands us to discern truth and deception!
In the foundation sense. If one says Babylon is America and another says it is England, these are discussions for study in cooperation of believers.
Foundation of truth living Christ Salvation Cleansing and in the Spirit are NOT negotiable.
2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Excerpts from Ephesians 4
3 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
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14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
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17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
And also Jesus said blind lead the blind and BOTH fall into the pit. If you seek Him you will find Him.
We are not supposed to follow man or doctrines of men. We are supposed to each have the Spirit. We only follow others as confirmed. But we should always double check with His word.
Again brethern can disagree on some things. We prophesy in part, we each should contribute to show what God has shown us or what we have observed from our studying or whats going on around us.
But foundation is Salvation and understanfing the work of the cross and being born of the Spirit and walking in a manner worthy of His calling. These are non- negotiable.
Not everyone is His and He doesnt want the others He greives their loss, but He is willing to turn them away.
God doesn't need us. He loves us. We need Him. And He already did His part to make covenant with us.
In covenant or contract there is a death of parties in agreement to fulfill the agreement. So Jesus died to do His part and deposited His Spirit. To enter contract we have to "count the cost" right? Pick up our crosses, and deposit our lives to follow Him. Its a walk in covenant with God.
If you are unwilling to invest in the covenant what is required after "counting the cost," then you can't enter His covenant of grace.
God already outstretched His arm to pick us up. If you run away He will pursue you and He will reason with you.
But He will let you go if you insist and refuse His covenant you cannot be a beneficiary of the covenant.
Matt 19 starts with Jesus discussing the covenant of marriage. And goes progressively into the cost.
22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Its a free gift is a misinterpretation by many.
Romans 5 and 6 are the complete picture of the free gift.
The gift was God made a way of covenant for fallen man, and He really doesnt benefit in payment for it.
So therefore it us a "free gift" and it forgives all debt and payment due " which is a get out of Hell free card" but the road out will cost you your temporal and will reward you with eternal.
27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?”
28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.
Romans 6
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You do as I say and I will save you from this decaying dead world. I will carry you out, if you trust me with your life. ...
.... Says the Lord Jesus.
John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
When you lie down, you will not be afraid; When you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.
Psalm 127
1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. 2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.
Matthew 11:28-30
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Is there anything wrong with what he is asking? If he was saying you have to sprint 5 miles a day i can get why your upset but he is asking nothing wrong of anyone.
Most people need a reason to be good, i.e., punishment if they're bad, thus man made laws and reward if they're good, i.e, go to heaven and sit on the right side of God, or, go to heaven and enjoy the exhausting but highly pleasurable activity of servicing 17 virgins, or, whatever.
As the influence of religion wanes, well Christianity at any rate, so the crime rates soar and the jails are bulging to overflowing. If it appears to be more rewarding to be bad, and no clear advantage for being good, most people will take the the former option. Why wouldn't they?
''Good'' has different interpretations. I knew someone who shot dead his mother-in-law from a distance of 700 yards. Yes, he was a ''good'' shot, but was he a ''good'' person?
Not so long back as the churches were crammed with the praying, hymn singing, coughing and farting faithful the landed gentry and powerful merchants reaped the bounty of the land and exploited the poorly shod, close on starvation working classes.
The secret to being bad is to it within the law, i.e., tax avoidance as opposed to tax evasion, note Apple and Google for instance. Exploitation disguised as creating employment.
In Europe if you travel the towns and cities on the Mediterranean you'll wonder in awe at the 1000s of multi million £/$ yachts and pleasure craft moored in the countless marinas. It's probably even more so in America. I am certain that the owners of these vessels are, in the main, double dealing scoundrels who have been, ''good'' at staying one step ahead of the posse'.
There are very strong arguments of God's existence, and of Biblical accuracy, and credibility.
I have found that what atheist want as proof is their defense for denial. God won't appease them because if you give them every reason to consider at least an investigation, their choice often is they really don't want to know.
No matter what you show them.
Best you can do is give them every argument to their objections and hopefully the light goes on.
I also know that as atheism grows, as Jesus says the last days love will wax cold. Light and Salt, without light it's dark, without salt foods loose flavor an in some foods salt keep foods from rotting.
Below is a short video clip I'd recommend. And this goes into a posting from an atheist that shows the downside of atheism.
LAnd we can see why Jesus said this last days sign would be present. And it is very present, it's even blindly present.
People don't recognize it in themselves, and they barely recognize it in others.
So as we switch the Jews scream "Release Barabas!" And "Crucify Jesus" today we see massive identity in darkness that identify and takes over society, and families, the rights of others to live and believe, as they scream intolerance, they define and personify intolerance. No one matters but self, and the darkness that affirms them as ok.
Any light that shines anywhere near them in their darkness is met with hate and intolerance. So we then hear "eliminate religion" "no signs of religious culture aloud, but we can erect a statue to Buddha, or Plato, anyone but Jesus.
Religion, the voice of light is silenced. Religious freedom confined to behind closed doors. Sound like tolerance?
Jesus said they will hate you, just like they hated me. Light shows darkness, and they scream just for light believing their darkness is sin. They HATE any eyes looking their way that have any light in them, and if they could they would pluck them out, never to look at them again.
Isn't it amazing how unreasonable and intolerance has grown to become. It's not enough for people of light to be tolerant. It's not enough till they put it out! Until they release your own children from your families values and moral standards. Why?
Because darkness hates light because in light nothing is hidden or masked, you see things as they are, and people prefer deception so light doesn't expose the darkness they dwell in.
This is a short clip that explains the atheist. Give it a few minutes, the letter from the atheist is both shocking yet sadly accurate and believable.
It would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.
Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.
So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2 yrs old, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!
His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.
Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.
So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.
Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.
So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.
So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.
He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.
Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.
Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.
And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.
So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the eleven disciples.
Many who saw and followed, met death by lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.
Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.
And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess you could say duh, that was bound to happen. Not really, the prophecies are much bigger pictures than experience would allow in imagination.
So then, all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.
Go to my points and prove them to be nonsense. You did not at all rebut any of my points. NOT ONE was logically dissected by you! NOT ONE! Generalizations of your baseless opinion are not arguments.
Seriously! So what do you even base logic on, Your Hot Air and FLATULENCE!
I didn't have to prove them to be nonsense. You did that all by yourself. If you reject your own points when applied to aliens instead of God, then why should I lay any credence to your points when you yourself don't?
When we go to trial, we include every source of evidence all prespective, not just from sources that support a pre determinef conclusion. Investigation and trial without an independent fair objective investigation is a mistrial.
The determination is beyond a reasonable doubt.
After all the evidence is looked at, we all make a jury decision.
And it is applied to what we conclude.
After all the evidence is given an objective review, do we find God Exists beyond a reasonable doubt, or that He doesn't exist beyond a reasonable doubt.
If evidence is excluded from objective reviw, you don't have a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt, all you have is a mistrial!
.it is a history book! It's obviously a history book! It's Ancient history written in a book!
It's the most long term following of one group of people through ancient history all in one book.
You can even see the growth of culture as it progresses through time. It is an eye into people of that day. You can just imagine them living in tents early on like Noah, Abraham, and Jacob.
To houses and the Palace of King Solomon.
Here is physical evidence, please take the time to watch it, it's on Netflix. If you don't then you can't say it doesn't exist.
If there isn't a video recording of the event and proof that it wasn't tampered with, then the evidence needs to be interpreted. There can be more than one interpretation. The interpretation that is selected is not guaranteed to be the correct interpretation. ;)
Go to my points and prove them to be nonsense. You did not at all rebut any of my points. NOT ONE was logically dissected by you! NOT ONE! Generalizations of your baseless opinion are not arguments.
Seriously! So what do you even base logic on, Your Hot Air and FLATULENCE!
If a person who believes in evolution told you that evolution only applues to humans and not animals, would you be inclined to believe him? I wouldn't.
It is not likely and is not usual - as a matter of fact it is HIGHLY unlikely and EXTREMELY unusual!!
Here is part of the historical event of Steven's Martyrdom
Notice his stoners coats were laid at Saul's feet.
Saul after murdering Christiand, has an unusual transformation and personally experienced an encounter with the Risen Jesus.
Saul goes from killing them to the greatest winner of souls. And by those actions fullfills PROPHESY!! And his dramatic conversion pushes the gospel out from his own countrymen to Gentiles, (other Nation other than Israel) and is well know even from those he was in league with while severely persecuting Christians.
Matt 24
14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Isaiah 11
10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious."
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So like it, or not this IS reasonable evidence, and along with 2000 prophesies that have already been fulfilled in detail!
With only 500 to go, and some of those are in process!
Evidence FOR GOD is mounting!!!
Stephen was martyred as murders placed their coats at
Saul's feet.
SAUL Later became PAUL, and went on to become a valiant Appostle of the faith he was a murderer in war against Christians!
What changed?
Acts 7
51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. 52 Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; 53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
Go to my points and prove them to be nonsense. You did not at all rebut any of my points. NOT ONE was logically dissected by you! NOT ONE! Generalizations of your baseless opinion are not arguments.
Seriously! So what do you even base logic on, Your Hot Air and FLATULENCE!
I think there is a difference between Christianity and other religions, in that
persecution was prophesied, and so also was the growth of Christianity. They were both prophesied by Jesus on several occasions, and they both came true in tandem.
2 The 4 Gospels are detailed individually written accounts that do not show any discrepancies that would indicate collusion .
by historians, and other investigative studies.
3 There are other documents confirm the texts. Some are hostile sources. But we can see the dynamics of the time period
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Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Accounts
There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan, non-Christian sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity; some ancient authors denied the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events surrounding His life:
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Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
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“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
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If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.
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Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:
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“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”
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In this account, Tacitus confirms several historical elements of the Biblical narrative: Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.
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Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
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“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”
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From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus: He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly.
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Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
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“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)
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“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)
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“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)
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From these accounts, we can add something to our understanding: Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected.
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Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
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“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”
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This early description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus.
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Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
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“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
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This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
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“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)
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There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this account, we know Jesus had an immediate impact on His followers: They were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.
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Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:
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“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)
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From this account we can add to our description of Jesus: He taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.
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Celsus (175AD)
This is the last hostile, non-Christian account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite antagonistic to the claims of the Gospels, but in his criticism he unknowingly affirmed and reinforced the Biblical authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:
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“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”
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Celsus admits Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea Jesus was the illegitimate son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm several important claims: Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.
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Hostile Non-Biblical Jewish Accounts
In addition to classical pagan sources chronicling the life of Jesus and His followers, there are also a number of ancient hostile Jewish sources describing Jesus. These are written by Jewish theologians, historians and leaders who were definitely not sympathetic to the Christian cause. Their writings are often very harsh, critical and even demeaning to Jesus. But there is still much these writings confirm:
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Josephus (37-101AD)
In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at an early age, became a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James (and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ), and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. There is much legitimate controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians who were accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, we’ll examine a scholarly reconstruction stripped of Christian embellishment:
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“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person).
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Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of Jesus’ miracles, life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude: Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians.
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Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
While the earliest Talmudic writings of Jewish Rabbis appear in the 5th century, the tradition of these Rabbinic authors indicates they are faithfully transmitting teachings from the early “Tannaitic” period of the 1st Century BC to the 2nd Century AD. Scholars believe there are a number of Talmudic writings referring to Jesus, and many of these writings are said to use code words to describe Jesus (such as “Balaam” or “Ben Stada” or “a certain one”). But for our purposes we’ll be very conservative and limit our examination to the passages referring to Jesus in a more direct way:
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“Jesus practiced magic and led Israel astray” (b. Sanhedrin 43a; cf. t. Shabbat 11.15; b. Shabbat 104b)
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“Rabbi Hisda (d. 309) said that Rabbi Jeremiah bar Abba said, ‘What is that which is written, ‘No evil will befall you, nor shall any plague come near your house’? (Psalm 91:10)… ‘No evil will befall you’ (means) that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you; ‘nor shall any plague come near your house’ (means) that you will not have a son or a disciple who burns his food like Jesus of Nazareth.” (b. Sanhedrin 103a; cf. b. Berakhot 17b)
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“Our rabbis have taught that Jesus had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. They brought Matthai to (to trial). He said, ‘Must Matthai be killed? For it is written, ‘When (mathai) shall I come and appear before God?’” (Psalm 92:2) They said to him, “Yes Matthai must be killed, for it is written, ‘When (mathai) he dies his name will perish’” (Psalm 41:5). They brought Nakai. He said to them, “Must Nakai be killed? For it is written, “The innocent (naqi) and the righteous will not slay’” (Exodus 23:7). They said to him, “Yes, Nakai must be kille, for it is written, ‘In secret places he slays the innocent (naqi)’” (Psalm 10:8). (b. Sanhedrin 43a; the passage continues in a similar way for Nezer, Buni and Todah)
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And this, perhaps the most famous of Talmudic passages about Jesus:
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“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)
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From just these passages mentioning Jesus by name, we can conclude the following: Jesus had magical powers, led the Jews away from their beliefs, had disciples who were martyred for their faith (one of whom was named Matthai), and was executed on the day before the Passover.
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The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)
The Toledot Yeshu is a medieval Jewish retelling of the life of Jesus. It is completely anti-Christian, to be sure. There are many versions of these ‘retellings’, and as part of the transmitted oral and written tradition of the Jews, we can presume their original place in antiquity, dating back to the time of Jesus’ first appearance as an influential leader who was drawing Jews away from their faith in the Law. The Toledot Yeshu contains a determined effort to explain away the miracles of Jesus and to deny the virgin birth. In some places, the text is quite vicious, but it does confirm many elements of the New Testament writings. Let’s take a look at a portion of the text (Jesus is called ‘Yehoshua’):
Evidence when viewed goes beyond reasonable doubt!
Here is some evidence that supports an affirmative verdict regarding many Biblical facts, including the Resurection:
1 - The Prophetic Words, and the Biblical Directions of Prophesy, and the Plan, the ultimate bottom line action and goals of Biblical content and Prophesy.
2 - Because Biblical History is credible it is a source in support of evidence.
3 - Because Biblical Prophesy is credible in its fulfillments it is an even greater source in support of evidence, especially since prophesy is layered, with many separate prophesies having to also come true for one to come true! - Even greater than knitting cells together in evolution!
4 - Because eye witness testimony, even outside of the Bible, other documents, Greek and Roman secular offer details confirming the dynamics of Christianity and Persecutions and Martyrdom.
5 - The accounts are not contradictions, (as though any were lying) the various times and places of writings actually are a confirmation of reliability, people who lie have fuzzy memories in a week, even with practice and easy communications of our day, lies unravel because even the untrained eye can pick out lies, but that's not the case with the four gospels, they confirm accidentally each other's facts, that show true eyewitness independent works, with different perspectives of the same exact event, as you know since you "read the book" the private investigated discusses this.
6 - The degree of insistence on the testimonies of Christians, and it's growth beyond their group, location, and generation. In comparison Muslims were militant from the start, attracting like violent individuals. It would not have the same magnet effect as peaceful Christians fed to lions. One would excell in dominance, like cell selection, the other would be eliminated as passive cells are dominated.
7 - The Prophetic Words spoken of concerning the rejection by its "mother religion" and the Prophetic Words stating as Messiah would be rejected, All Nations would hear an exclusive religion, rejected by its originator and accepted world wide!
8 - 300 prophesies fulfilled in just the one person Jesus
9 - Martyrdom, the ferverency and dedication, they most all went courageously against horrible opposition, and most ultimately died for it. And not in a group drinking poison like Jim Jones, Christians often died or were imprisoned alone and often died gruesome deaths
10 - Paul a Jew of Jews, happily killing Christians saw what must have been a hologram! Jesus the Risen Lord knocked him off a horse and blinded him, then sent him to talk to his disciples.
Picture this, Saul/Paul had just led a crowd in Stephen's stoning, Saul was unmoved by it, it was something he was gladly a part of. All the Christians knew of Saul, and he scared of them, they feared for their lives.
Jesus knocks Saul off of a horse, and disarms him by making him temporarily blind. Probably so the Christians wouldn't fear him when he pulled up on his horse. Jesus made him disabled in killing them, so he couldn't harm them.
Jesus sends Saul to get disciples that just saw him murder their friend and brother, Stephen! Now he is there to be saved, healed and filled with the Spirit.
Paul goes on to lead the way like a work horse bringing the message of Jesus the Risen Christ to the Gentiles. Saul Jew of Jews - takes on a new name, born again, and brought the gospel out to the Gentiles.
So these are 10 pieces of evidence I have and consider as evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt"
[Courtesy of debate with Slapshot - The fact that other bios are sometimes written by folks who did not know the subject is moot. Why? Because, say, a bio on FDR has been written by hundreds if not thousands of people. So there is no doubt as to the facts in it, which are easily checkable. And no doubt of course to FDR's existence. And of course a bio on FDR or JFK does not have them performing magical or supernatural feats.
With JC, there is precious little written about him by ANY secular sources. And of the few mentions of him there ARE by seculars, NONE of them claim he was a god nor did miracles. Only that, I think in maybe one or two secular accounts, it is mentioned that "some of his followers claim he performed miracles."
IOW: outside of your bible, which is filled with preposterous claims of magic, there is scant if not NO evidence that JC was anything close to a god. Thus, when taken as a whole, it appears in all likelihood he was simply another of the dozens of zealous political insurrectionists of his time, who bristled at Roman Occupation.]
KNHAV777- They have been historically confirmed the way anything historical has been confirmed!
What makes it all the more confirmed is the outside sources!
And you mentioned there is no outside sources regarding Jesus performing miracles, then an even greater challenge would be there are no writings saying the claim of miracles to be fraudulent. With the objection, I would think writings stating how not to fall for these lies would be an even greater expectation.
After all, the are documented by 4 Gospel writers, and in acts and letters.
And Catholocism and Constantine, even though he converted he established Catholocism and killed Christians who resisted Catholicism and beginning Catholocism burned their Bibles and writings, Catholocism wanted to control the populous so only the the Catholic Church had the written Word, hence the Dark Ages. The one sect remained true to the faith, and the Word was a black market item punishable by prison or death.
KNHAV777- Even more proof: So, the proof actually is there are NO writings rebutting claims of miracles. There are None rebutting Jesus' miracles, nor the early Christian miracles. Which should be more so in excess from all the opposition from Jews, Romans, and Greeks! They had even more reason to write against claims, then the Christians who already had much documentation of the miracles and Words of Jesus in all the writings we did and do already have as Christians!
So thanks, (courtesy of debate with Slapshot) FYI that's now my 11th reason for evidence "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt!"
Also there are other sources. Such as the Darkening from the 6th hour to the 9th. And it was documented to not be a coincidental eclipse. So Reason # 12!
We have a documentation stating it, and astronomers confirm there was no eclipse that day. So as the Roman Soldiers said, "Surely He was the Son of God" and if that's the case then of course the Resurection is a God thing to do!
◄Isaiah 64:6 New International Version All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Romans 4:2►New International VersionIf, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
Did you ever hear? "Our righteousness is like filthy rags before Him." What does it mean?
It is explained in this parable under clarify post for length. (Matthew 22)
A backdrop the wedding clothes are coverings. Imagine Jesus legally purchased all the dust back from under the fall, our flesh that makes up a bodily covering for our souls.
One set of dust is cleansed and made new, and in His nature. The other "garment" is like the nature of Cain, wrestling with the ground to produce "the best" and "the worste" of mankind's nature.
Coverings, clothes, and garments, also in the law mentioned are garments made of two fabrics, this is a prophetic command for judgment against "divided hearts."
See Laodecea in Revelations. And I encourage you to study these words in the Bible for more understanding.
At the Resurrection He eventually ... (in two stages, I just mentioned for clarity purpose only.)
Eventually all bodies are returned to each disembodied soul. Disembodied souls since the fall, these wander lost is the hopelessness and brokenness of man in the Hell in the middle of the earth.
Jesus was the Bread who was broken for us, in order to make us whole again. This is Salvation. In case you ever wondered "saved from what?"
So in the end when everyone has their bodies is returned to them, those not cleansed and made new through the work of Christ will be "as filthy rags" which is actually referencing "menstrual rags" (note: which is a state of being barren)
And those have to sit outside. Where it is written in Revelations, He says "outside are the dogs immoral etc... "
The whole Bible is one string, one author, one purpose, one direction, literally one beginnining to end!
If you understand it by His revealing it. So in your own righteousness no matter how man mwasures, before Jesus you will not be dressed appropriately for His wedding feast!
10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
No one holds the absolute truth so no one could claim to be one true religion. All I know is that man has his own perspective as he is subjective. He could not tell the absolute right nor what is wrong nor can he tell the back of the house while only seeing the front of the house. Respectively, with religion, they hold truth but only a part of it. : )
No single world religion accounts for even half the world population, and since most people pretty much stuck with what they were taught growing up then most of the world population would be doomed pretty much from birth if only one religion was correct. I can't accept that. Nor do I think an omnipotent God would allow that unless s/he isn't truly fair or loving, and if not then it's just another bully and not worth appeasing.
Christianity has called people out of many religions. Many ferverent Christians were raised in dead churches, Catholocism, Islam, World Religions, and Judaism.
The intresting thing about Christianity is its roots. Mother is Judaism. And the same claim is a thread, out of Judaism. Christians are basically Jews who received the Messiah.
We are children of Abraham, God promised him he would be father of Nations, not just Israel.
And you have prophetic word that passed through with a clear defined directive, passing down a diligence of written Word a sacred text, each page reviewed by 5 scribes, and perfect was the goal of every page.
The prophet words seem to be directed on purpose, not just pre-written history, it was pre-planned history!
Whether you like God or not is a different question as to does He exist, and is there only one truth.
But there is a God, and the Bible is His Word. The Jews and everything that surrounds them in the Bible confirms Him.
There has been a great deal of extreme hate toward Jews and Christians.
Look at the history of these two groups, oppression and persecution are synonyms. From Jewish opposition then Holocaust, and they are surrounded you enemies. And the Catholic Church killed millions of Christians. Christians were target. Why? Could there be something to it all
All I know is that the God in the old testament is a wrathful God and the God in the new testament is a kinder, gentler, God. I also know that the Jews claim to be the chosen people and Christians appear to have hijacked the Jewish religion, added Jesus into the mix and claimed that anyone can be saved, not just the chosen.
Trying to gather enough evidence to show that the theory of God should be considered on equal footing as evolution is a steep up hill battle.
The books that make up the bible (the Gospels, Revelations, etc.) were written by men. It is hard to prove that the book of John was even written by John. Then, there's the problem of who decided which books should make up the bible and which books should be kept out.
As far as prophecy, it depends on interpretation. Different people interpret it differently.
If only there were one religion. One people with one voice agreeing on one interpretation, then the theory of God may have a better chance. Otherwise you end up with different groups having their own interpretation (arguing with each other) about which theory of God should get equal footing with evolution and allowed to compete. And even then, someone can still come along and claim that this so called God is nothing more than an advanced alien civilization that may no longer exist.
Past prophesy that has been fulfilled isn't interpretive.
The contribution that discredited the history was a miscalculation of time of digs. Archaeologist, historians, and theologians all jumped at a time period that most appeared to fit the Biblical record, and it was long thought that the Exodus occurred in 1550 BC.
And digs in that era showed no evidence. So it became the talk of discredit to Biblical reliability. That's where Slapshot gets his favorite description " Bronze God."
But more recent digs have uncovered all the details in sequence of order as detailed in the historical accounts found in the Bible.
When digs turned up this historic relics, the fields likely pressured within their studies, related studies, and even political special interests represented by groups that hold an anti-religious sentiment.
Watch Patterns of Evidence, and if that intrigues you to ask questions, there are others to watch that can support what I am saying and have you then stepping into the next phase; now that evidence shows God exists, beyond a reasonable doubt, what is the Old Testament all about, and do I like God or would I prefer to spend an Eternity separated from Him?
We cannot begin to gave a discussion because we are not even on the same playing field.
I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me.
To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time. To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet."
That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible.
I don't know what you can say to change my mind if I won't accept the bible nor prophecy as evidence.
What you are not doing is communicating with my reasoning. Debate is understanding the reasoning and disputing or questioning or agreeing with some or all points.
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That's dialogue in debate. I an discussing why historically and Prophetic ally what has been said is credible.
Debate on why it's not point by point, otherwise you are not debating, you are merely voicing your opinion.
Debate, convince me. Undo what I said.
I have to your points, but you apparently are not in dialogue in direct response to my points. And that is not debate etiquette.
And its not giving you any food for thought to possibly see and accept some good points be it on a shelf or a change in prespective.
In order to communicate with reasoning, we have to agree with what is reasonable. And we cannot agree on what is reasonable so I don't waste my time.
Let's say someone believed in Santa Claus or leprechaums, is it reasonable to waste one's time disputing or questioning or agreeing with some or all of their points?
Let's say someone believed in Santa Claus or leprechaums, is it reasonable to waste one's time disputing or questioning or agreeing with some or all of their points?
SANTA AND LEPRECHAUNS HAVE NEVER COME TRUE, so what is your point?
There is 0 value to your point.
And a nice guy filling socks in Germany is hardly miraculous!
Your issue, you ignore logic and facts. But you Have Not given me alternative rebuttals to my points, generalizations are a failure to Debate. Your opinion has no merit because there is no rebuttal except for your opinion.
As I see it, you have enough points here it would take you weeks to rebut them. And I am 100 % your rebuttals would be nonsense against facts.
If you think any of your arguments have any merit, your not to bright then. You did not rebut 1 point with an argument , only generalizations of am opinion you pulled out of the flatulence that is blowing out your a-ss!
When we go to trial, we include every source of evidence all prespective, not just from sources that support a pre determinef conclusion. Investigation and trial without an independent fair objective investigation is a mistrial.
The determination is beyond a reasonable doubt.
After all the evidence is looked at, we all make a jury decision.
And it is applied to what we conclude.
After all the evidence is given an objective review, do we find God Exists beyond a reasonable doubt, or that He doesn't exist beyond a reasonable doubt.
If evidence is excluded from objective reviw, you don't have a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt, all you have is a mistrial!
.it is a history book! It's obviously a history book! It's Ancient history written in a book!
It's the most long term following of one group of people through ancient history all in one book.
You can even see the growth of culture as it progresses through time. It is an eye into people of that day. You can just imagine them living in tents early on like Noah, Abraham, and Jacob,
to houses and the Palace of King Solomon.
Here is physical evidence, please take the time to watch it, it's on Netflix. If you don't then you can't say it doesn't exist.
You: In order to communicate with reasoning, we have to agree with what is reasonable. And we cannot agree on what is reasonable so I don't waste my time.
Which reasoning skills did you apply? From your arguments - NONE!
Types of Reasoning
Disciplines > Argument > Types of Reasoning
Reasoning within an argument gives the rationale behind why one choice, for example should be selected over another. Types of reasoning include:
Abduction: the process of creating explanatory hypotheses.
Backwards Reasoning: Start from what you want and work back.
Butterfly Logic: How people often argue.
Analogical Reasoning: relating things to novel other situations.
Cause-and-Effect Reasoning: showing causes and resulting effect.
Cause-to-Effects Reasoning: starting from the cause and going forward.
Effects-to-Cause Reasoning: starting from the effect and working backward.
The Bradford Hill Criteria: for cause and effect in medical diagnosis.
Comparative Reasoning: comparing one thing against another.
Conditional Reasoning: using if...then...
Criteria Reasoning: comparing against established criteria.
Decompositional Reasoning: understand the parts to understand the whole.
Deductive Reasoning: starting from the general rule and moving to specifics.
Exemplar Reasoning: using an example.
Inductive Reasoning: starting from specifics and deriving a general rule.
Modal Logic: arguing about necessity and possibility.
Pros-vs-cons Reasoning: using arguments both for and against a case.
Residue Reasoning: Removing first what is not logical.
Set-based Reasoning: based on categories and membership relationships.
Systemic Reasoning: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Syllogistic Reasoning: drawing conclusions from premises.
Traditional Logic: assuming premises are correct.
Note that these are not all mutually exclusive methods and several give different lenses onto overlapping areas. In classical argument, for example, all arguments are framed as either
Reasoning skills? I call it reflection. If you argument doesn't hold water when applied to aliens, how can it hold water when applied to a mystical, magical, being? ;)
For the prophesy below to have come true, God would have had to have fulfilled three prophesies to match history! -
To LINE UP WITH HISTORIC ACCURACY, There would have to be other prophesies fulfilled on which the prophesy below is dependent on.
THREE PROPHESIES HAD TO BE ACCURATE FOR THIS, NOT JUST ONE!!! All three were fulfilled.
2 OTHER Bible Prophesies -
1 -to scatter them to all the Nations, and 2 - then bring the Jews back from all the Nations He had scattered them, which are also other detailed prophesied! And bringing them back was fullfilled after ww2. .. ... Thousands of years after these prophesies!
Coincidence? Or is this inaccurate?
Was Terrorism a Biblical Prophesy?
Was the Middle East Crisis a Biblical Prophesy?
How many points can we accumulate for -
Bible Truth or Bible Lie?
It almost seems if it weren't for Israel life wouldn't be quite as disturbed. How is it that 4000 years of these people who really didn't bring much on themselves historically, are the matter that brings TREMBLING (OR TERROR!!!) To the door of EVERY Nation? Has Israel been a burden to lift? When lifting Israel
have those Nations face Trembling, and being cut into pieces?
How did the Bible know Nations would lift Israel? What Nations back then lifted other Nations?
Accurate prophesy?
BIBLE PROPHESY
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of TREMBLING unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it… For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle
For that prophecy to havecome true, all the aluens had to do was travel through time in order to make sure that it matched history.
They also made sure that there were other prophies that fulfilled the history test and supported other prophesies.
It was a very well orchestrated and coordinated effort. But their technology allowed them to pull it off without a hitch and full countless of believers into thinking that it was all God's work. ;)
I don'tunderstand why you resist the truth that is as plain as the nose on your face. What's harder to belive, that there is a Santa Claus or that Santa Claus is your parents?
How do you test anything, be it Science, or Archaeology, or Ancient History, Investigation of any Evidence, and determining Beyond a Reasonable Doubt or Reasonable Conclusion?"
How and Why would the Jews orchestrate loosing their own land, falling into Nations that ultimately ended at the Holocaust, Made a Nation in A DAY! On the land scattered from in 1948, to then be surrounded by Islamic Terrorism ?
Really who is the crazy ass Jews and Christians that wonderful and that crazy to orchestrate this and carry it out over 1900 years???? Seriously?
The regathering of Israel is an often repeated prediction of the Bible, mentioned in a multitude of passages. The Jews were globally dispersed for 1,900 years, and yet, during that time they were able to retain their cultural and religious identity. In recent years, they were reestablished as a nation against all odds. This would be about as likely as the Native Americans being given back their land in the United States! In fact, that would be more likely—given the fact that the Native Americans were not globally dispersed for almost two millennia.
ISRAEL1948 - Let’s consider the predictions that the Bible makes in this regard. Below is a partial list of verses that predict the regathering of Israel. For more passages, see the endnote.[i]
The Regathering in Isaiah
Let’s look at this passage closely:
(Is. 11:11-12 NASB) Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations, and will assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
First, this cannot refer to the regathering under Ezra and Nehemiah, because he clearly says that they will be regathered “a second time.” Isaiah was writing before the first dispersion under Nebuchadnezzar (8th century B.C.). The return from Babylonian and Assyrian exile was the “first regathering”
(Is. 10:20-27; 44:26-45:8). Moreover, this cannot refer to the regathering of the Exodus under Moses, because Isaiah promised a “remnant” will be regathered. The Exodus was
not a remnant –rather all of Israel was gathered.
Second, this passage states that this will be a global regathering (“from the islands of the sea… from the four corners of the earth”), rather than a local regathering.
Third, the context explains that this is a global regathering at the end of history. In verses 1-5, Isaiah speaks of the Branch (the Messiah). In verses 6-9, he speaks of the Messianic kingdom.
In verses 10-16, he speaks of the political or physical regathering of Israel. In chapter 12:1-6, he speaks of the
spiritual regathering in Israel.[1] This is during the time of
King Messiah (v.10).
Isaiah mentions the “Root of Jesse,” which is synonymous with the Messiah.
Fourth, he mentions the specific countries from which the Jews will return. Regarding the first regathering under Ezra and Nehemiah, Eugenie Johnston writes:
About 50 thousand Jews from Babylon returned immediately under Zerubbabel (Neh. 7:6-7, 66-67). Nearly a century later, Nehemiah led another group from Shushan in Persia (Neh. 1:1; 2:1-11). No other places are mentioned from which Jews returned. Among the names of Jews who returned, we find a number of Babylonian and Persian names, indicating that the Jews had lived in these areas, but no evidence of return from other regions.[2]
Today, we see that there has been an exodus from these specific countries that Isaiah had predicted:
We can discuss wrath in a bit, let's see if God exists first.
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jolie(5680) 1 point
All I know is that the God in the old testament is a wrathful God and the God in the new testament is a kinder, gentler, God. I also know that the Jews claim to be the chosen people and Christians appear to have hijacked the Jewish religion, added Jesus into the mix and claimed that anyone can be saved, not just the chosen.
1hr ago
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You mentions Christians hijacked the Jewish Religion. On the contrary, it was pre-designed and fullfilled to a T!
Speaking of a T there are scriptures commanding His Word to be written and transcribed according to every jot and tittle!
These are scriptures below are are further explained in the New Testament as removing branches and grafting branches into the tree.
Final fulfillments of prophesy seem to say He will make one nation of people, and Jews will overwhelmingly see Jesus as the Messiah like never before, and I believe that's the final act. Future prophesy is for the insightful.
It's not meant to be curious and dry so any wizard can pick it up and spout truths. It's meant to be Divinely Interpreted by the Spirit of God and the Word, giving understanding to those whom He Seals, as spoken in Revelations.
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Genesis 17:4
“As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 17:5
“No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 17:6
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 17:16
I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 18:18
since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 22:18
In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 25:23
The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
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Genesis 26:4
I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
So you have a people group identified as a people, through which God made them custodians of His written Word, a people He commanded and were driven by accuracy in transcribing copies throughout generations to every written dot . and every written cross of the T, with nearly 2000 prophetic word fullfilled often in such detail, it identified locations and participants by NAME, and you don't see a Divine Intruder?
Let me spell this out, this should make you question something!
You have a people, faithful, unfaithful, prophets delivering corrections, guidance, preparations, encouragement, wisdom, understanding, blessings, and judgements, often AGAINST their own people, religion, and culture.
How many religions record their God is going to judge them His people as a whole, and give their blessings to another people to make them jealous, as they have all made Him jealous with harlotries of worshipping other gods who are not God, and many gods of the world, who's arm can not save, while they turn their back on God, whose arm can save them?
And then to have it fulfilled, their religion fulfilled and given to all the nations, while the can't even see the fulfillment in Jesus.
So how does that make sense. Shouldn't that raise a question like this may not have been in the Jews best interest to prophesy against themselves?!?!?!? Duh!
Do you have children? If so, do you forbid them to call anyone else their parent or risk your eternal wrath?
We cannot begin to gave a discussion because we are not even on the same playing field.
I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me.
To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time. To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet."
That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible.
I don't know what you can say to change my mind if I won't accept the bible nor prophecy as evidence.
You: Do you have children? If so, do you forbid them to call anyone else their parent or risk your eternal wrath?
Is God made in our image? Or are we corrupted made of both dark and light? In general aren't we all evil and also good?
God is Light, there is no darkness in Him.
If a good mother knew that a high deck was falling, would she let the child she loves play and jump on it?
He is Light, Eternal Life is Light, No darkness can remain in the Kingdom of Light. God knowing this sent His Son to change us into beings of Light, forgiven and confident in the Light of His Love and Salvation.
If no darkness can ever stand in His Kingdom of Light, is it love or wrath that leads us to become Children of Light?
If He transforms us through the Cross and Resurection so we are able to Stand before Him through grace He gives in and through the Messiah, is that tyrannical?
If Jesus cleanses ud our sins and refines us thriugh fire like pure gold, and disciplines is as children loved in every way,
as He transforms us by the workings of The Holy Spirit in our lives is that a Loving Father? If He comes in to commute with us if we open the door to Him, is He cruel? If we choose Him because we love Light more than darkness, and by that we are His, by our own free will, choosing His Light over the dark deceptions of sin that belongs to the world and the god of this world, Satan, then aren't the Children of Light those who love the Father as beloved children?
You: I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me.
To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time.
To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet."
That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible.
I don't know what you can say to change my mind if I won't accept the bible nor prophecy as evidence.
OK
1 - We have a historical timeline of a culture a people a faith detailing their own judgement, transcribing every jot and tittle with accuracy and a people who memorizing it all for even the common people was mandatory.
2 - We have that people ripping their faith from themselves, in their own prophetic scriptures, declaring they themselves will miss the time of the Messiah, and be judged for it. Followed by scattering into Nations as being chased like leaves driven by strong winds, then prophesy of gathering returning to their own land, as came true after ww2, then surrounded by enemies as told, and for Israel to be a cup of trembling, and a burden that brings enemies room tear up the Nations that support her, as Israel becomes a Burdensome stone to those who lift her, yet Israel will hold her place. PROPHESY! History pre-written Not Interpretations.
3 - We have prophesies of Abraham and Sarah not just a promise of decendents by blood, but by rejection Jesus foretold, which they did, and you have the Old and New Testament translated into every tongue and there are Christians who serve the JEWISH Messiah in EVERY Nation, just like prophets foretold and just like Jesus foretold. It's not reasonable to have this prophesy over and over again, like He wasn't just slipping and accidentally foretelling this, I gave you a bunch and that was just out of one of the Books in the Bible. That prophesy is so repeated that it was just as much a miracle that the Jews missed Him in fulfillment of Prophesy than Peter walking on water!
All of it is the work of an advanced alien society with the ability to time travel. They planned it in order to foster humanity into a galactic future. They are guiding us so that we don't destroy ourselves and so that someday we can claim our rightful place in the federation of planets. I don't understand what is so unbelieable about that. They invented religion, God, everything, in order to deliver a message of hope and unity.
The world only seems to be on the verge of self destruction. But it hasn't. The message of hope and unity is that it won't destroy itself because the aliens won't allow it. ;)
There are many ways to arrive at what you define as truth? And what you believe, or know, or assume, or think and what is a credible source of a sound position. And its important to understand to what degree your position is credible and reasonable.
What is the objective approach you used to conclude truth, or what is probable, or possible? Or what is just steering through popularity in social attitudes, and to be tested as reasonable or unreasonable selective conclusions for positions held and degree of truth held?
So this debate is focused on how you define your "truth" and show your work, and prove it is a credible truth that has been arrived through reasonable conclusions through fair evaluations, weighing relative arguments objectively, and not just based on a bias or assumption.
So the question is, What are the foundation of facts you used to weigh and determine your views and opinions?
What validation process did you apply to all sides of issues or beliefs?
What criteria did you apply to weigh and apply to conclude your beliefs, or views, or opinions?
Are you foundation of facts persuasively established through an honest comparison?
Are the foundations of facts used reasonable for taking a stand or strong position for what is fair, or right, or is truth in a matter?
Did you arrive at your conclusion without an independent fair objective investigation?
. In general, many people accept what is told to them at face value if the opinions appeal to their mentality or world view, and similar in nature to the other opinions they already hold.
. For Example: - Many people dig their heels in arguements in favor of Atheism, while hiding behind findings exclusive only to Evolution.
. Or hiding behind the many truths is even dumber. This is a case of dumb and dumber, and stupid and stupider!
1 Corinthians 2
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself
is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
By so doing they refuse to objectively challenge their positions through an honest evaluation of other persuasive evidence and findings. An opinion lacks credible logic and reasoning, if any argument used outside of their defensive comfortable argument or field of study.
A person who is selective only of points that agree with their view is just a noisy whoops whirly bird you shake on New Years Eve. It's meaningless noise!
There isn't any credibility in views left unchallenged! Unchallenged points of debate are futile arguments. Argument that rejects challenge outside their defensive comfort level, are unstable, and have no credible merit!
If your view refuses to address findings from other sources, with potential of evidence proving to have equal merit for persuasion, then your view simply put is just a small opinion of an uneducated idiot!
No matter how smart you think you sound, it's just an admission of how not smart you actually are! As seen often in debates in support or denial of Divine Intrusion.
Those who remain unchallenged in their views because they will only debate through one direction refuse true investigation of evidence worth equal consideration, in the case of these arguments that the possibility of God exist is credible. And reasonable evidence of Divine Intrusion outside of their comfort level arguments in evolution do exist.
And by ignoring it exists it shows a lack of credibility in their entire argument. How can you take a stand without honest evaluation of all evidence? Is there integrity in an argument if evidence remains ignored without them honestly evaluating it?
Since evolution is not fully conclusive in every way, then evolution is not a Deductive Argument.
It may be a convincing Ampliative Argument, but it is not a Deductive Guarentee, or even a Deductive Assurance.
Evolution in itself is an Inconclusive Argument because it is still only an opinion without Absolute certainty Affirmatively Proven beyond any doubt reasonable or unreasonable, in the rules of Absolute Facts, so it remains Debatable. And is unable to conclusively confirm or deny if God Exists or if God Doesn't Exist!
Opinions in debate should pass a test of credibility. Showing the opinion was derived through an objective challenge, and through a thorough investigation, and with an honest approach applying equal weights of measure for points and debating possibility and probability with at minimum an objective review of supports or points that are used in persuasion.
It's evident in every issue debated, it's a human nature character flaw to think winning in opinion by a refusal to weigh the opposing opinions is even a debate in the 1st place!
Well sorry to say, but every source that google has provided me says that Catholicism is considered to be a strain of Christianity, and a major portion too (50.1% of Christians being Roman Catholic). Explain this?
2 The History of Catholocism was formed by man on the premise that the Pope is Jesus on earth that the Eucharistic and challace wine is the Body and Blood of Christ, in actual representation
3 The priest is mediator for forgiveness of sin and the payment of penance
4 Purgatory was a way to collect money to free souls from Purgatory
5 The martyr of millions of Christians
6 The Jesuits
7 Catholocism kept the Word out of the hands of the people to control them.
Etc etc etc Revelations is an exact picture of Catholocism
And Catholocism came after Rev was written.
Watch: A Lamp in the Dark - currently on Amazon Prime
Sure you can find truth of every flavor, and misinformation in layered in sites we are made to think of as encyclopedias - like wicopedia.
You do realize that you have to evaluate things on the Internet, even news, no integrity, and lots of foul opinions! Just because it on the Internet doesn't make it true !
Prophetic fulfillments are often met with bogus defensive barriers that truth resistent unbelievers raise to close the door to any real review of challenges, of real truth to their comfortably familiar deceptions.
Truth resistent unbelievers often raise unrealistic expectations in applying prophecies to their historical fulfillments.
Empty arguments based soley on unrealistic under-whelmed attitudes.
Not any real value rebuttals raised to any of my argument points of Bible prophesy. No logical explanation of the differences frpm prophesy and its fullfillment. How details how it doesnt apply, or historic value, or to my many points of evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Yet somehow, these mumbo jumbo arguments are raised based on how the truth resistent say they "feel under-whelmed at the evidence presented."
And that's the only lame argument?
..... Really?
These are empty arguments by any measure when we take in consideration the many rare and unususual biblical events. Biblical history often following the least likely course of direction, through the most unusual sequences of events, with the most unpredictable fantastical, supernatural outcomes.
Accuracy of biblical history is confirmed through linguists, historians, and archaeologists, and validated through more recent digs which uncovered many artifacts notably in an order of occurrence of events, in expected locations, lwith artifacts and many findings of biblical proportions.
Against all odds and probability, land mark events in biblical history seem to follow an atypical chain of events. Taking the most unusual course of direction, each history least expected outcome
that one event, let alone many events found in fantastic biblical historical accounts, as documented per account found in the Bible.
Natural progression would be low unlikely to follow of the sequence in chain of events and outcomes, in combination of 1000s of prophetic of know fulfilled prophesies of men and nations.
Circumstances and landmark events following patterned against all odds outcomes in land mark biblical events, against all odds key movement through every generation took unlikely improbable often impossible odds, but as if fatefully outcome had a known outcome.
You told me about it. Thank you. You're off the hook. Whatever happens next is on me, not you or people of faith. If there is a God, I'll just say, "Look, I had Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Christians, etc., trying to tell me about you. How was I supposed to decide which one is right? Besides, aliens make a lot more sense." ;)
I didn't ask you your feelings about being told, I asked if in the end you weren't told by people of faith, what would you at that moment think of all those who passed you by, and didn't tell you?
I'm never off the hook, because if one doesn't hear it one way, it doesn't mean they won't hear it another.
I don't give up on people, I think there is hope for most people, and I don't assume because people reject today, that tomorroe they also will again reject.
God works on people, we shine light in the darkness, sow seeds of truth, water it, others sow and water it, but Jesus reveals Himself and saves, He works through His people, His Word, and His Spirit.
But the buck stops with our shining light, and that's where His Spirit begins. For those He knows will be His, He works, and works, sometime for hours, days, months, and even years.
I didn't ask you your feelings about being told, I asked if in the end you weren't told by people of faith, what would you at that moment think of all those who passed you by, and didn't tell you?
The son of the late atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Murray played a significant part alongside his mother in the ending of mandatory prayer in public schools in 1963.
He later converted and the loving atheist mother decided to end her relationship to her son, by declaring a statement of a post natal abortion. "Mad O'hare" and her son and nice were missing and murdered, I wonder what she said as she was confronted by her kidnapper and murder, since she was kidnapped then murdered,
I imagine there were many moments of a variety of emotions, outbursts, accusations, and begging from this prominent famous atheist, I wonder how strong her faith in atheism was when death her death by murder was imminent ?
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
At this point you have apostasy in many main stream churches as well, the wolves are in the house of the Lord. And the Lord is staying outside knocking.
Judgement begins in the house of the Lord.
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
The apostasy of the church (many even most mainstream churches considered Christian by "Google") -- Jesus will spit them out for being Luke warm
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Romanism has ridden through church history upon the back of kings, is clothed in gorgeous robes and decked in expensive attire, is full of abominations, has a golden cup, is drunken with the blood of the martyrs it has slaughtered throughout its bloody history, and sits upon the seven mountains of Rome.
The inhabitants of the world are indeed drunk with the wine of her fornication. Countless multitudes of deceived people from practically every nation blindly follow Rome’s errors and glory in Rome’s religion.
Following are some of ways the harlot of Revelation 17 is identified with Rome:
Pope rule is historically clear antichrist
Today Catholocism likely hide their deals of curruption.
Their doctrine remains a heretic doctrine.
There is Biblical truth in Catholocism through the mere knowledge of God through some basic principles of Christianity, some Christians find Christ, but that is an independent work of the Spirit in the lives of individual people, despite doctrine and heresies of Catholocism.
I find it ironic to try and be looking for a single selective religion that would be deemed as the 'right' one from the plethora that exist, mostly due to the fact that nearly every religion mandates itself as the 'true' religion and requires that one is faithful to the deity(s) of this religion. I think that it is best to look at every religion separately and pick out the positive aspects of each, and try to live accordingly to those, therefore just trying to be good and the best person that you can possibly be. Many religious people act overall better and in a kinder way than non-religious people, meaning that there is definitely something important and good within religion, and it shouldn't be denounced in any generalized way.
I think the main point of just about every religion is to be good. Regardless of what you believe the main tenet in most religions is the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
It's in this regard that I don't care what you believe, you could believe in God or Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it doesn't matter. Be a good person and your reward comes to you according to your belief.