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The definitive evolution debate - there are 3 rounds - you decide who won.
Phoebe
Side Score: 46
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Ross
Side Score: 35
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She won the debate because she was coming from a defensive stance and instead of creating an actual argument for it, Ross states that you can 'see' evolution which is the stupidest argument for it. Opposable thumbs do not prove evolution in themselves. they are an example of microevolution, not macroevolution. Side: Phoebe
Nahh...I agree with Jolie on this one. Evolution will one day graduate from being a Theory into being a Law. It simply has too much evidence, and there is not even an alternative theory among us Biologists and Anthropologists that comes in at a distant second. Evo has passed every single test and question ever thrown at it. And with flying colors. The evidence grows every single year. We don't even discuss the possibility of it being wrong, her at the Universities and other Institutions of Higher Learning. No more than we wonder if the Earth is really a spheroid and not flat. Or if it is medically and physically impossible for an ancient mortal carpenter cum philosopher to rise from the dead after three days dead in some shit-hole Middle Eastern cave. LOL SS Side: Phoebe
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"Evolution will one day graduate from being a Theory into being a Law." Theories don't graduate into laws. https://www.youtube.com/ Side: Phoebe
So..., the theory of evolution is just a work in progress that may still lose favor with the scientific community someday in favor of some other theory. And the scientific community has bet on the wrong horse before. So..., we shouldn't assume that a theory will stand the test of time and thus Ross was right in admitting that there is a chance evolution is "wrong." And when someone arrogantly claims a theory to be God's given truth, they are being closed minded and risk turning science into unchallenged dogma. That was fun! Is any one hungry? ;) Side: Phoebe
This "Friends" video is awesome! And its an accurate portrayal of today's argument of Evolution vs Creation. Phoebe is so simple but the holes in evolution are simple, and the answer is simple. Many scientists have evolved to NOT ask questions they can't answer because they are simply too challenging. Now in modern day science and archeology there is more concern with controlling the outcome of science research than research. Science and related studies spend every dollar and every hour of research on weighing data that supports their theories, a variety of theories I add, and each only admit evidence relative to the whole of their theory. But dismiss evidence that poses a challenge to their overall theories. That's pseudo-science ! While Biblical Historic and Prophetic credible evidence shows the origin not even related to the method, should be addressed and answered also! . Side: Phoebe
Wait..., are you saying that the theory of evolution is just a work in progress that may still lose favor with the scientific community someday in favor of some other theory? And the scientific community has bet on the wrong horse before? Are you also saying that we shouldn't assume that a theory will stand the test of time and thus Ross was right in admitting that there is a chance evolution is "wrong?" Perhaps you are saying that when someone arrogantly claims a theory to be God's given truth, they are being closed minded and risk turning science into unchallenged dogma? Or maybe you are saying that God (or some advanced civilization) created humans through the process of evolution? Please clarify ;) Side: Ross
What I am saying is the what is the Origin? "What was first?" And that is debatable, unconfirmed, and debateable. It is not a science law. It is an unknown, and so is many principles within evolution. Theories in evolution are like religious denominations. They are like sects of the evolution theory. So while mutations may have occured, I actually don't doubt they did occur, I also know in the same complexity ad mutations, God pre-planned, and pre-determined, and pre-wrote World History. And that quite a feat, probably Greater Than a few cells mutating, we see that everyday in cancer cells. But The Bible, wow! It knits prophesy, upon prophesy, upon prophesy which is as complicated as making a human being! There is nothing more complex that knitting prophesy together and fulfilling it all! Think of the complexity of all the moving parts. Fulfilling prophesy is mutations by Absolute Intelligent Design. It not only forms the world and everything in it, but it creates a species of the multiplicities of directives involved to keep in orbit every people, event, physical law, communications between God and man, every act and force of nature, and ever rise and fall and action of every nation. So those may be greater questions than if we are from chips, apes, or gorillas! . Side: Phoebe
My belief system is that there is no such thing as death. We are all eternal beings. Satan (if he exists) challenged God (if He exists) because he knew there would be little consequence (i.e., God cannot kill the eternal being, Satan). So God (if He exists) is more like a president. Earth is like a video game meant to entertain us eternal beings from getting board. Or maybe Earth is a school to teach us how to become better eternal beings. Either way, God, the way you see Him, is not the way I see Him. And the bible doesn't hold much weight with me. So, trying to hold up the bible as proof is fruitless. Trying to change my mind is fruitless. At worst, you will come across like Ross (i.e., arrogant and closed minded). At best you will come across as misguided. I'm just trying to save you some time in trying to convert me. BTW, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness. I never converted anyone. I'm too old to be converted ;) Side: Phoebe
jolie(5682) Clarified 1 point My belief system is that there is no such thing as death. We are all eternal beings. Satan (if he exists) challenged God (if He exists) because he knew there would be little consequence (i.e., God cannot kill the eternal being, Satan). So God (if He exists) is more like a president. There is a challenge from Satan in play from the beginning. I'm not sure what Satan's awareness is regarding his total part in it. Satan isvthe father of lies, deceptions rule him. And was cursed to forever slither on the dust and to eat dust all of his days. And a lust as driven in enmity to the seed of the the woman, and that Christ would be born and wound his (Satan's) head, while Satan strikes His (Jesus') heel. A few Biblical principles regarding opposition as tools; God hardened the heart of Pharoah - Pharoah chose the fruit of Satan, Pharoah is also a typology of Satan the ruler of the Egypt "of the World and its dark endulgences) So if there is a God and Satan Biblical History and Prophesy show Satan doing exactly as God commands and only what God allows. He is a subject even in his acts of rebellion. The question is then, is the decieved decieved? In judgement Prophets documented that Spiritual Blindness is a type of judgement, and God often issued that judgement. Satan the god of this world has been judged already! So if God and Satan do exist, then Satan being decieved and used in the hand of the Almighty as a tool is a frequent prophetic word. As Satan directly and in those who serve him knowingly or unknowingly. As in Ezekiel, God raises up armies and turns them to do His purposes, He puts thoughts in their minds and pulls them to their places to execute judgement as like with fish hooks in their mouths. Again we discuss the why, this discussion is to establish what the Bible says, as we look at evidence in weight that God may likely have orchestrated all of time and history. To a complex degree beyond cell mutations known in evolution over millions of years. Orchestrating the reproduction of, mutations and assembling of cells is hands down impressive! But not nearly as impressive as knitting together time and history resulting in a pre-determined outcome. With every mutation and adaptation of time the Bible shows a remarkable accuracy of specific detail. With confirmations built in showing absolute design and control only explained by a Divine Intruder, with a specific directive that is clearly visible throughout history, with a logical progression of pre-written history and future events that could only be concluded as visible proof of the existence and involvement of the God of the Bible. Confirmed against odds and reason by pre-planned and pre-written history - from start to finish, as per single event to the interworkings of the whole shebang in guidance down a specific direction, in accord and in compliance and or defiance whatever He deems appropriate for direction, fulfillment, and His purposed final outcome, He orchestrated all, every law of nature and science pre-established, with every Nation playing their pre-written part in predestined marked strategies indeoendent and also in response to a few simple factors some designed and some left to their own ;
1) Free Will, God knew of the hardness of heart of players like Pharoah, they were selected because God already knew their depravity through foreknowledge. Same way He pre-wrote history, and pre-determined history. .a) So you have two dynamics that determine placement of prophesy, one is God injecting persons and events to guide history, and to be used as communication and Interpretation and understanding -Holy Spirit illuminates in Revelation to the our spirits when we are born again. .b) Placement of response to events, persons, events, attitudes and behaviors pre-known. Much of prophesy is time scheduled in response to the events and increased depravity unfolding. 2) God foreknew the ultimate growth of depravity. He saw its growth, and pre- knit in His responses. 3) God gave instructions for those who are His, a football passed down through time, watched over to reveal to those who are marked as His own, - those who become born again as children of light, and filled with The Holy Spirit of Promise . . Side: Phoebe
We cannot begin to gave a discussion because we are not even on the same playing field. I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me. To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time. To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet." That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible. I don't know what you can say to change my mind if I won't accept the bible nor prophecy as evidence. Side: Phoebe
What you are not doing is communicating with my reasoning. Debate is understanding the reasoning and disputing or questioning or agreeing with some or all points. . That's dialogue in debate. I an discussing why historically and Prophetic ally what has been said is credible. Debate on why it's not point by point, otherwise you are not debating, you are merely voicing your opinion. Debate, convince me. Undo what I said. I have to your points, but you apparently are not in dialogue in direct response to my points. And that is not debate etiquette. And its not giving you any food for thought to possibly see and accept some good points be it on a shelf or a change in prespective. What is debate? . Side: Phoebe
Ok, I would argue that a more believeable theory is that an advanced alien race with the knowledge of time travel, created humans through the process of evolution and made many accurate predictions called prophecies through the use of time travel. But the people at the time were not technologically advanced enough to understand that. So the people of that time attributed the aliens' works as acts of God. But now, with our technology, we are able to see those works for what they are, the work of an advanced alien race endowed with time travel. Now, if you were to read the bible with this new insight in mind, you may come to my way of seeing things. Side: Phoebe
You: You really didn't answer the questions ;) Which question haven't I answered? You: Now, if you were to read the bible with this new insight in mind, you may come to my way of seeing things. If advanced aliens created us, who created them? Them for advancement would be several thousands, or millions for its contributions. Contribution from one God - Creator - is more logical and believable than many gods achieving greatness then creating a world of greatness. So what their purpose? And if aliens technology is believable, then why isn't God? Those who love their darkness, hide from the Light lest their deeds be exposed. . Side: Phoebe
I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me. To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time. To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet." That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible. . No I am not "using the Bible as the foundation of my argument. I am using History to validate the Bible, using its prophetic words detailing future events, and using its Historic writings, events, and context confirming its validation with actual fulfilled History! And I am applying History that we all know as History to compare Prophesies to History. So if History on many many occasions, and a threads of events are detailed in the Bible, and throughout multiplicities of scriptures and multiplicities of separate events, with accuraye detailing of multiplicities of events; You'd have to be blind not to see the correlation, and foolish not to connect them. Wouldn't pre-told history be suspect of evidence to be weighed in the debate of thr existence of God, and the truth from God because of His existence? . Side: Phoebe
. This is the other half with support of my last dispute post: . These are Biblical puzzle pieces of prophesy. The Holy Spirit is the Interpretor. Past prophesy is easy to see as fullfilled in history, but even easy to see can be obscured to the stubborn hard heart, so even if visibly accurate in detail, the spiritually blind still might not be able to see it. Not much we can do about that, free will guides you, a hardened heart makes for judgement. And that judgement is to be blind and deaf when it's right in front of you, groping in darkness, God lets darkness take you over, sealing you with the Mark of the Beast and His Image. Daniel 3:1 [ The King’s Golden Image ] Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width six cubits; he set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. . Again in Daniel: 31 While the word was in the king’s mouth, a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is declared: sovereignty has been removed from you, 32 and you will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling place will be with the beasts of the field. You will be given grass to eat like cattle, and seven periods of time will pass over you until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes.’ 33 Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled; and he was driven away from mankind and began eating grass like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws. . 1 Corinthians 15: 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. . 2 Corinthians 3: 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. . 2 Corinthians 4: 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. . Revelation 13: 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. . Revelation 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. . Revelation 14: 9 [ Doom for Worshipers of the Beast ] Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, . Revelation 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” . Romans 1: 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. . Romans 8: 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; . Side: Ross
We cannot begin to gave a discussion because we are not even on the same playing field. I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me. To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time. To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet." That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible. I don't know what you can say to change my mind if I won't accept the bible nor prophecy as evidence. Side: Ross
To clarify, I am dismissing evolution as not debatable. There are signs that mutation were likely, and there is evidence of old earth, that I accepted in my review of evidence. . So I am not debating evolution, my debate is origin. Intelligent Design as the Creator, or nothing as the creator? Side: Phoebe
jolie(5687) Clarified 1 point Can the creator be an advanced alien race that created us through the process of evolution? What if these so called miracles were nothing more than advanced technology? I mean, why does God have to be so... magical? The question is who Created the advanced civilization? Now you are comparing the possibility of one God as the Creator, to many varieties of gods skilled in technology. So then what was the Maximum Excellence that existed to achieve Maximum Greatness? No one is Greater then the Sum Parts of what it is from out of. Example we may have latent genes or recessive genes, but is it possible to exhibit a gene that was never latent, or recessed, in us? Can a gene just appear outside of our lineage and reproduction if it never existed in our lineage and reproduction? Side: Phoebe
The rule of logic leading to Maximum Greatness, by standards of Maximum Excellence is as follows. Qualities pertaining to Maximum Excellence in Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness is determined by the highest possible Evolution in any and every possible world. Maximum Excellence is point of reference, and Maximum Greatness is point of reference! 1 Maximum Greatness exists in any and every possible world.
2 Maximum Excellence exists in every possible way relative to the greatest or at the very least minimum application necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in any and every possible world.
3 If any of the possible worlds consists of only ants and bugs, then Maximum Excellence is whatever qualities are necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in that possible world. 4 So Maximum Excellence is relative to the greater or at least minimum applications necessary to achieve highest evolution of Maximum Greatness for any and all possible world. 5 Maximum Excellence entails the application of qualities necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness relative to any and every possible world. 6 There exists a Being of Maximum Excellence relative to the greatest or at least minimum qualities necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness in any and every possible world. 7 Maximum Excellence as Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection are relative to the greater or at least minimum application necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in every possible world.
8 What is impossible in one possible world, may be be possible in other possible worlds. 9 What is possible in one possible world may be impossible in another possible world. 10 The proposition, there exists an Omnicient, Omnipotent, and Morally Perfect Being of Maximum Excellence relative to the greater or at least minimum application necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in an actual possible world. 11 So the conclusion is there must be a Maximum Excellent Being in any and every possible world that has the greatest or at least minimum qualities necessary in Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection relevant to the acievement of highest possible evolution in Maximum Greatness in that actual possible world . 12 - Nothing exists if No-Maximality is exemplified 13 - Maximal greatness is possible only if Maximality is exemplified. 14 - Without Maximality, then Maximal Greatness is impossible! 15 - Since Maximality exists, ONLY those who are made in the image of Maximality can achieve the highest possible Maximum Greatness in the image of Maximality! 16 - Those who are made in the image of Maximality achieve Maximum Greatness by an ever present goal within themselves, and set before themselves ever reaching for their Maximum Greatness with standards reflective of the image of Maximality! 17 - The goal to achieve Maximum Greatness can never achieved if Maximality is altered by a lesser image of Maximality in any and every possible world! 18 - Maximum Greatness is achieved by reaching it's Maximum Potential in it's Maximum Purpose through achieving it's highest possible likeness to an unaltered image of Maximality. Side: Phoebe
What would it be like if God didn't really exist? What if there was no Maximality and no Maximum Greatness Potential? Who created conscience judgement, and what are the biological building blocks found in nature that are considered building blocks of qualities found in the abstract character of individuals, families, and in nations? What building blocks found in nature established abstract thought and conscience judgement without the dependency of Maximality, but as with all compounds deposited and established at its beginning conception? If cells created and evolved then wouldnt it be reasonable and logical to conclude there are no exclusive qualities of conscience judgement limitations to humanity, those building blocks of conscience judgement should be profusely and liberally and at comparable degrees throughout all nature and visibly tangible in many creatures, and NOT exclusively only to the human quality, right? What are the chemical compounds when broken down of fairness, truth and justice, of honor, or even dishonor? Which molecules decide disgrace or lies, or even put standards of every degrees on crimes? What are the chemical compounds that establish a biological sequence needed for love and loyalty, hate, and betrayal? Without any basis of standards derived from qualities of a Maximality, then why does conscience judgement in humanity house qualities beyond our basic biology? Even if mental evolution leads to advanced science and technology of every kind as avanced intellect from biology evolves, what neurons in biology builds the basics of conscience judgement? Do wolves hold court to decide if hunting practices are carried out according to an acceptable standards? Do gorillas vote for their leaders? Do lions decide on matters of justice and share their prey among the other prides out of compassion? Do bulls compete on the basis of charisma and likeability and appeal when mating? If all creatures are limited to basic natural instincts then why does conscience judgement exist at all? So even if we have an intellectual Maximal Greatness, even that basically should dictate near equals in the same world from the same original building blocks. Where we incubated differently than a bear? Was the peri dish of nature that built man in a separate environment? If not then where are creatures equal to us in many ways, greater than us in some ways, and just below us in other ways? Shouldn't all of creation have a relative degree of likeness in at least a likeness to our species? Don't we have gradual degrees of differences in like kinds in every species? In nature we have many kinds found in the species of the cat family from the house cat to the lion. But you don't only have the lion and the house cat. How then do we have qualities of Maximality? There is no doubt there is a God, because these qualities plain and simply are not building blocks in every living thing, so they either don't exist in any living thing, or they potentially exist in every living thing. If they do not exist in every living thing, then the only logical conclusion is that Maximality exists, and has established qualities according to His own Maximality. It is illogical to consider that even if complicated forms of life evolved from nothing but a spark of energy, came to being out of nothing, that only 1 form of all that life that came forth through that chaos would hold an exclusivity to conscience judgement in even the smallest of matters, let alone the broad matters of conscience judgement. This is absolute proof there is either dna or matter that can produce these qualities in humanity, and also outside of humanity. Other animals absolutely also must produce evidence of conscience judgement or there is no argument if there is a Maximality. The only argument that can follow that is not if there is a Maximality, but who is the Maximality! If there is no basis for Conscience without a Maximality to define and establish a standard of conscience, then how does conscience judgement exist in the first place? And an even more disturbing question, is why and how then is it exclusive to ONLY 1 species? So then why would conscience judgement exist among humanity, yet NOT exist in any other living thing produced in the same possible world togethet? Shouldn't we at least see many degrees of conscience judgement throughout nature that at least is comparable to conscience judgement found in humanity? Wouldn't it make sense that if conscience judgement was evolved, that there would be further samplings of conscience judgement in the same possible world, living togethet? The rule of logic leading to Maximum Greatness, by standards of Maximum Excellence is as follows. Qualities pertaining to Maximum Excellence in Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness is determined by the highest possible Evolution in any and every possible world. Maximum Excellence is point of reference, and Maximum Greatness is point of reference! Side: Phoebe
Go to my points and prove them to be nonsense. You did not at all rebut any of my points. NOT ONE was logically dissected by you! NOT ONE! Generalizations of your baseless opinion are not arguments.
Seriously! So what do you even base logic on, Your Hot Air and FLATULENCE! Side: Phoebe
Arrogant? Who is arrogant? Choose wisely! Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Isaiah 14 “How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased! 5 “The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers 6 Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. 7 “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. 8 “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ 9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’ 12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13 “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?’ 18 “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb. 19 “But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse. . Side: Ross
Who's arrogant? Well, let's see. I told you that I was not interested in debating religion and/or God with you. And yet, you persisted, you hounded me and you tried to goad me into it. Then, when I told you my beliefs, you proceeded to try to prove to me that your way of thinking is right and mine is (at best) misguided. You are acting just like Ross in the video. Now tell me, are you so arrogant and closed minded that you cannot even admit that there's a teeny, tiny, possibility that you are wrong about the existence of God? Side: Ross
Go to my points and prove them to be nonsense. You did not at all rebut any of my points. NOT ONE was logically dissected by you! NOT ONE! Generalizations of your baseless opinion are not arguments.
Seriously! So what do you even base logic on, Your Hot Air and FLATULENCE! Side: Phoebe
Why would I be able to show prophesies from Quran or other religion texts. You are the one that mentioned them, I'm asking you to prove your statement! Why do people think facts are equal to the hot air flatulence stinking up the air when they let it out. Facts are not equal to flatulence! Side: Phoebe
. The Dead Sea Scrolls enhance our knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism and provide a wealth of comparative material for New Testament scholars, including many important parallels to the Jesus movement. They show Christianity to be rooted in Judaism and have been called the evolutionary link between the two. Christianity is Judaism, with Prophetic fulfilment the difference. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets Matt 5 17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. . Side: Phoebe
Food for thought: Please scientifically explain this record. Or was it just a coincidence that this was a record of the day Jesus died on the cross? The record is not Christian or religious, it is secular. . Thallus (52AD) Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion: . “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1) . If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion. Mark 15 27 They *crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.” 29 Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save Yourself, and come down from the cross!” 31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32 Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him. 33 When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 35 When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, “Behold, He is calling for Elijah.” 36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down.” 37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. 38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!” Side: Phoebe
Considering there is 0 documentation from aliens, then flatulence is your only documentation. So go with it, your choice. You did not discredit any one of my points of my arguments with any support facts, but flatulence is your rule hot air, it will float till you run out of hot air. Hope your grounded by then, or the fall could be fatal! Side: Ross
One can predict an 86 year old woman is likely to have one or more, mild to severe heart attacks, especially if she has already has high blood pressure, is under cardiovascular medical supervision, and has a medical history of excessively high blood pressure readings. In Predictions probabilities vary depending on past history, experience, or knowledge base surrounding the subject of the prediction. Above example may have a high accuracy based on information about the subject of the prediction. The prediction above may have higher than 70 %, 80 % or even 90 % accuracy if the woman lives beyond 100 years old. That is a predictive guess based on point of reference. The difference between Prophesy vs Predictions; Prophesy is accurate foreknowledge of future events and accurate details surrounding a specified subject of a prophetic word. Unlike the health prediction of the woman above who has a known medical condition, Prophesy is independent of currently known information, it is not dependent on probability, and often is unlikely to occur or is an unforeseeable set of circumstances or an unpredictable event or sequence of events. For example, to declare an adopted new born with no known medical or family history will die of a heart attack at the age of 30, and then it comes to pass - that is prophesy. Caution, prophesy is only reliable with an established confirmation of proven past performance with complete accuracy. with proof of past performance. If prophetic words had a history of accuracy, then there is a basis of reliability. If prophetic words are without proof of past performance than it's reliability is unknown. If one lived in 1975, and has a basic knowledge of the political climate, and understands the rate of social, economical, and technical changes, advancements, and progress, one can make predictive scenarios that likely have a good chance of predictive accuracy. Spreading out years even further, still predictions can have high degrees of accuracy based on current events, and historical similarities. Say a predictor were in 1776. Predictions could have a high degree of accuracy in Predictive guesses regarding Americas future on the basis of knowledge regarding other civilizations, studies of governments, historical events, and current or past frictions, wars, climate patterns, and political patterns. Predictions could have high percentages in accuracy. Predictions can even be as great as 100 % accurate. Predictions can be dead on or dead wrong. Predictions are educated guesses or point of reference guesses, they have a basis for prediction which adds a higher likelihood of partial and even complete accuracies. There is a basis for predictions. Predictions are point of reference, predictive knowledge supported guesses, a baseline of information for a probable guess, an educated guess. What makes prophesy completely unique? Prophesy often has no basis for guess or prediction. Biblical Prophesy most often are like cells mutating, selectively knit together to form one living thing. One Prophesy fulfilled likely dependent on several other supporting Prophesies also required to be fulfilled. Prophesies in Sequence are the common thread found in Biblical Prophesy, and often no basis of outcome exists in Prophecies. Side: Phoebe
If your technology is advanced enough to allow for time travel, then you can make anything seem prophetic. Imagine going back to the end of World War One and stating, "The Jewish state will be born from the ashes of another great war." Ooooh, prophetic, right? Why invoke a mystic, magical being when all you have to do is invoke advanced technology? Everything you have stated can be accomplished through advanced technology. Side: Phoebe
One can predict an 86 year old woman is likely to have one or more, mild to severe heart attacks, especially if she has already has high blood pressure, is under cardiovascular medical supervision, and has a medical history of excessively high blood pressure readings. In Predictions probabilities vary depending on past history, experience, or knowledge base surrounding the subject of the prediction. Above example may have a high accuracy based on information about the subject of the prediction. The prediction above may have higher than 70 %, 80 % or even 90 % accuracy if the woman lives beyond 100 years old. That is a predictive guess based on point of reference. The difference between Prophesy vs Predictions; Prophesy is accurate foreknowledge of future events and accurate details surrounding a specified subject of a prophetic word. Unlike the health prediction of the woman above who has a known medical condition, Prophesy is independent of currently known information, it is not dependent on probability, and often is unlikely to occur or is an unforeseeable set of circumstances or an unpredictable event or sequence of events. For example, to declare an adopted new born with no known medical or family history will die of a heart attack at the age of 30, and then it comes to pass - that is prophesy. Caution, prophesy is only reliable with an established confirmation of proven past performance with complete accuracy. with proof of past performance. If prophetic words had a history of accuracy, then there is a basis of reliability. If prophetic words are without proof of past performance than it's reliability is unknown. If one lived in 1975, and has a basic knowledge of the political climate, and understands the rate of social, economical, and technical changes, advancements, and progress, one can make predictive scenarios that likely have a good chance of predictive accuracy. Spreading years out even further, still predictions can have high degrees of accuracy based on current events, and historical similarities. Say one who predicts were in 1776, Predictions could present a high degree of accuracy, they are predictive guesses. Predictions regarding the future of America may score in accuracy based on basic or broad knowledge of the predictor in the studies of civilizations, governments, history, current or past successes, failures, frictions, wars, climate and political patterns, trends, views, values and ideas of the general populous and of government leaders. Predictions could have high percentages in accuracy. Predictions can even be as great as 100 % accurate. Predictions can be dead on or dead wrong. Side: Phoebe
Predictions are educated guesses. Points of reference predictions have a basis for their prediction which makes for a higher likelihood of partial accuracy and even complete accuracies. What makes prophesy completely unique from prediction? Bible prophesy often has no basis for its "prophetic declarations:" prophecy is not a predictive educated guess. Biblical Prophesies are often like cells mutating. Selectively knitting together many cells, to form one living thing. Thats like when one prophesy to be fulfilled is dependent on several other supporting prophesies also fulfilled, in the order required for it to be fulfilled. Prophesies sequences are a common thread found in Biblical Prophesy, and often no basis for an educated outcome exists in Prophecy. Predictions are a natural phenominom. Prophesies are supernatural. They are miraculous because of their structure and complexity. Prophesy is: 1 - God designing events to unfold at scheduled appointed times 2 - God's response to foreknowledge of man's footprint, actions, behaviors, events, and advancements progressing through time according to the free will given you God to man. Predictions are NOT equal to Prophesies. It is a mistake to view these two terms as similar. They are exclusive unrelated terms. Predictions are NOT Prophesy, and Prophesies are NOT Predictions! A girl goes to Luna the fortune teller. The girl is a single and pretty, Luna could "predict" the girl would find of the love of her life in the summer of next year, that is a deductive prediction often used in fortune telling. These predictions take the cake for the Captain Obvious awards of predictions. And this is NOT prophesy! We hear everyday, exclamations of claims as "I knew it!" "I could feel it!" Or "I predicted that would happen!" This is NOT Prophesy! There is a broad base of knowledge to draw from for higher accuracy of predictions in all of these types of predictions. They are educated or point of reference supported guesses. This is NOT Prophesy! With that there is an acceptable margin of error that we grade on the curve as perfect predictions, making real prophesy equal to predictions, an then equalize prophesy, desensitized to the difference. So when we hear "Bible Prophesy" we define it somewhere between all of these types of predictions that's our experience and understanding of predictions or prophesies. But none of these types of predictions are equal to Biblical Prophesy. Biblical Prophesy isn't a prediction. It is pre-written history with a level of no allowance for margin of error. Prophets prophesied times, and time periods. They prophesied changes in political, regional, geographical, social, economical, religious factors and changes in peace and war. And changes from wars, and in nature. They prophesied natural disasters, cataclysmic events, famines, floods, earthquake, pestilence, water quality and poisoning, etc! The Bible prophesied the rise and fall of Kingdoms, of Kings, and of Rulers. The Bible prophesied in details identifying allies, and enemies, prophesying every detail from the beginning to end, through out all in the pages of the Bible. The prophets prophesied with complete accuracy, all the time, and often in complex detail, and from no point of reference. No point of reference or basis of knowledge used to dream up or imagine future events, it would be like Moses dreaming up the internet. If you have a phone you can dream up a cell phone. If communication by camel is all you know, your not likely dreaming up a fax machine or the ability to email a letter. To some degree point of reference plays a roll in the reach of our imagination. The prophet's points of reference is most of their prophesies, could not be predictive, or dreamt up to the accuracy and details found in fulfilled biblical prophesies. Side: Phoebe
That's right. Accurate prophesies cannot be dreamt up. It takes sophisticated technology to travel through time in order to make accurate prophesies. Also, magical beings (Santa, Leprechauns, faeries, etc.) cannot make accurate prophesies. That leaves aliens as the reasonable explanation. ;) Side: Phoebe
To predict is to say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something. Prophesy is a prediction of the future. So, if you have a time travel machine and you see the future, BINGO! You too can prophecy all you want ;) Side: Ross
If you have a phone you can dream up a cell phone. If communication by camel is all you know, your not likely dreaming up a fax machine or the ability to email a letter. To some degree point of reference plays a roll in the reach of our imagination. The prophet's points of reference is most of their prophesies, could not be predictive, or dreamt up to the accuracy and details found in fulfilled biblical prophesies. When reading and understanding prophesy, realize point of reference of the prophet. Their language and their experiences of their day, and a basic knowledge of the subject of the prophesy. And The Holy Spirit. if you are unrealistic, for example, looking for modern words to describe modern events, foretold by an ancient prophet then you may feel it seems inaccurate, vague, or incomplete. This handicap defines your ability or disability to understand the prophesy, your handicap doesn't define prophesy, it only defines your disability to understand and interpret the prophesy. Reasons prophesy is not understood, unrealistic expectations of clarity due to differences terminology and familiarity of modern advancements and other related time period differences. If one approaches prophesy with bias and without objectivity then prophesy will not and can not be understood. Therefore, if you are unable to read and understand prophesy or unable to be objective then interpretation of prophesy is missing definition due to the readers personal limitations which prevent understanding, insight, and skills relative to reasoning, logic, application of prophesy, knowledge of subject within a prophesy, applicable past present and future in context of purpose, understanding content of text and any surrounding details for reading comprehension and prophetic comprehension, and most of all eyes to see, ears to hear, a heart to understand, and the Holy Spirit of Truth, who gives eyes to our understanding without which Biblical literacy is not possible, particularly in Prophesies that are spiritual mysteries in obscure texts meant for revelations made known within the spirit of the spiritual man. But unknown to the man who is without The Holy Spirit of Truth, revelations are purposely withheld, and understanding remains unavailable to the natural minds of natural men. Jesus Explains Prophesy: 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; 15 For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’ Side: Ross
That's right. Accurate prophesies cannot be dreamt up. It takes sophisticated technology to travel through time in order to make accurate prophesies. Also, magical beings (Santa, Leprechauns, faeries, etc.) cannot make accurate prophesies. That leaves aliens as the reasonable explanation. ;) Side: Ross
The question I have, and be honest. If there were one God, one way, and one truth, and if the Bible were His way of communicating, and our road map to Life with Him, would you want to know, or would you turn your back and worship aliens? And if you would want to know, when exactly would that be? Side: Ross
If there is no better way for God to communicate, then I am sorry. And believing in aliens is not the same as worshiping them. Assuming there's a creator, magical or alien, why worship them? Do you worship your parents? Do you make your kids worship you? If I were a creator I would be like, "Hey. I created you. I will guide as best I can but it's your life. Go live it. Don't waste your time worshiping me. That serves no purpose. That's enslaving. I love you and thus I'm setting you free. Go. Do your thing." I mean, people are just too needy. No wonder God is like, "Me? Listen to people's prayers? Screw that! They need to grow up and take care of themselves." Am I supposed to feel indebted to some creator? There's a debt to be paid? I didn't ask to be born. Give me liberty or take you "gift" of life back. Sorry, I would rather believe in aliens. ;) Side: Ross
How can I know? Because YOU told me? Why should I believe you? Besides that, if I cannot know because the communication mechanism is faulty, then how can YOU know? Do you have better ears? Your argument is that there are prophesies in the bible that came true and they talk about there being a God so therefore, there's a God. The problem with your argument is that I don't acknowledge the prophesies because we don't have the original texts. For example, the story of Jesus Christ was written down centuries AFTER His life. Don't get me wrong, I believe He existed but I don't believe He created miracles. If the text was written centuries later, then it is very to say, "Hey Bob, remember when this happened? Let's write down that Jesus predicted that and it came true." Now, if they were aliens, they would say, "Hey Bob, remember when we visited 1940? Let's write something vague about that so that they think it is a prophesy come true." If Jesus created miracles, then there's a better way for God to communicate than through the bible. He can just keep on coming back and raising people from the dead and with each trip down to Earth, He would gather more and more believers. I mean think about it. He performed miracles in His day and still there were people who didn't believe in Him. I would be more inclined to think that Jesus was a cult leader. Hell, He doesn't even have to perform miracles. He could just say, "OK, listen up. For every person that attends church, they get a free iPhone. And if you follow the bible, the service plan is free. But if you screw up, you will have to pay the whole bill yourself." Side: Phoebe
Below bold are the prophesies I'd like you to skim, I hope you will pull out some of them to discuss, to answer my questions. Ok so you seem to know there is a difference. Can you tell me about these prophesies, and why you think that these specific prophesies are not applicable to the events we connect them to, and why you feel they are off, or vague, or not applicable. And if they are not off, why them isn't it impressive to you, please be specific not generalizations? And if it's not impressive can you show me the common occurrences or support as to why they ar not impressive to you? Such prophesies must be common if they are not impressive. Can you show me some, and tell me why or what makes them equal? .
The Persecution of the Jews The return of the Jews to the Holy Land largely began and continues due to persecution in the nations they have lived under exile: Ezekiel 11:16-17 - Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone."' Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel."' Ezekiel 34:27-30 - "...They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord GOD. Region called "Palestine Israel and Transjordan After Great Britain conquered Palestine during World War I, there were steps made towards pledging support for a Jewish state. However, it wasn't until after the Holocaust (a Jewish "calamity" that many Islamic/Arab groups supported and in some cases perpetuated), and World War II, that there was enough sympathetic support in the world to actually bring about an Israeli state. The British Mandate of Palestine was a proposal for two nations, side-by-side: an Arab nation - Trans-Jordan, and a Jewish nation - Israel. The Palestinians and War UN Partition Plan Picture source: Wikipedia Due to conflict with the Arabs, Great Britain handed the issue over to the United Nations, who further partitioned the land, as shown on the map to the left. All of the Arab leaders voted against it. After Israel declared their independence, the "ancient hatred" of the Arab nations turned into a war to try to prevent the Jewish nation from coming to fruition, so they could take both nations for themselves. Ironically, these same Arab groups are pushing for a similar partition plan to divide Israel today that they initially rejected. Israel won their war of independence because God was there with them. However, the Bible is clear that future judgment is coming to these Arab nations because of their "ancient hatred" against Israel, their participation against them in the "calamity" (Babylonian conquest, Roman conquest and/or the Holocaust?), and they want the "two nations," Israel and Trans-Jordan for themselves: Ezekiel 35:5 - "Because you have had an ancient hatred, and have shed the blood of the children of Israel by the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, when their iniquity came to an end." Ezekiel 35:10-11 - "Because you have said, 'These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess them,' although the LORD was there, therefore, as I live," says the Lord GOD, "I will do according to your anger and according to the envy which you showed in your hatred against them; and I will make Myself known among them when I judge you." God also said that He would bless the land that was desolate when His people return from exile. I have seen with my own eyes that the desert in Israel is blooming! Ezekiel 36:8-11 - But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. Ancient Land of Edom Ancient Land of Edom Ironically, it was the improvement in the land after the Jews began their return from exile in the 19th century that drew in the Arab people from the surrounding regions. There is evidence that many of these Arabs are descendants of the ancient Edomites, known later in history as the Idumaeans. During Israel's War of Independence, over 700,000 Arabs who resided in Israel fled. After the war was over, the surrounding Arab countries refused to absorb these refugees into their countries. Instead, the countries of Jordan and Egypt annexed the Gaza Strip and West Bank through negotiations, and forced the Palestinian refugees to live there. . Israel's War of Independence 1948 These refugees in Israel are known as Palestinians. The passage below in Obadiah accurately describes how the surrounding countries have forced the Palestinian people to live as refugees near the borders of Israel. These countries have, in effect, been using the Palestinians as pawns to try to divide and destroy Israel, refusing to absorb them into their own countries after Israel won their war of Independence in 1948. The wording about deception and laying a trap supports the notion that the "tents of Edom" are pawns, or bait in a trap being set for Israel: . Obadiah 1:6-7 - Oh, how Esau shall be searched out! How his hidden treasures shall be sought after! All the men in your confederacy shall force you to the border; the men at peace with you shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap for you. No one is aware of it. Most of the Arab people who live in and around Israel are Muslim. The Jewish state's existence is a direct threat to their religion and belief in the Koran, which is why they deny Israel's sovereignty. Muslims believe that the Jews lost their right to the land because of their disobedience. The Koran teaches that Muslims have to recover land that non-Muslims took from them (source). Therefore, they believe Israel has no right to the Holy Land anymore and that it is Allah's will to take it back. Islam also teaches Muslims to kill Jews and Christians because they are infidels (source).Instead of disbelieving in Islam, they reject Israel being a nation and seek annihilation of the Jews. In doing so, they blaspheme the truth of God's Word: . Ezekiel 35:12-13 - "...I have heard all your blasphemies which you have spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, 'They are desolate; they are given to us to consume.' Thus with your mouth you have boasted against Me and multiplied your words against Me; I have heard them." Ezekiel prophesied that God would take the "ancient heights" from Israel's enemies and give it back to them after their return from exile. These "ancient heights" are the Golan Heights and the mountains in the West Bank: . Ezekiel 36:1-5 - "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,'"' therefore prophesy, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people"- therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around - therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country."' . Ezekiel 36:6-7,12 - "Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations." Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.... My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children." Ezekiel's prophecy found fulfillment in the Six-Day-War in 1967, when Israel took back the Golan Heights and the West Bank: Territory Won by Israel after Six-Day War 1967 Territory Won by Israel after Six-Day War 1967 Since the Jews began returning to the land, there has been constant struggle in the Middle East in the form of wars and terrorism. The Islamic world wants to destroy Israel, while the rest of the world wants to bring peace to the region by dividing Israel and Jerusalem. What the world fails to realize is that Islamic ideology will never allow for a peace agreement to last. Islam's "culture of death," in the form of raising suicide bombers who believe they are doing the will of Allah, make a difficult situation impossible. The reason the United States became involved in the struggle against Islamic fundamentalists is simply because it is an impediment to their destruction of Israel. As prophesied in the Bible, this region will continue in turmoil until the Messiah returns: Zechariah 12:2-3 - Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Those who try to divide the land appear as peacemakers. However, they are acting in opposition to God's will, so destruction will come on those who try: Ezekiel 36:5-7, 12 - Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country."' "Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations." Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.... My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children." 1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they say, "Peace and safety!", then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. The world insists that the answer is to divide tiny Israel, but the Lord says it belongs to Israel. The Arabs want to take all of Israel. But has the Lord been unfair to the Arabs? Israel and the Arab Countries Unfulfilled prophecies litter the Old Testament prophets that pronounce future judgment on Israel's immediate neighbors. Judgment is coming in the form of two wars against Israel's neighbors bent on their destruction, who occupy a large area of the land promised to Israel by God. In the first war, the Palestinian refugees, who are the "tents of Edom" (Psalm 83:6), will form a confederacy with Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria against Israel. The devastation described on both sides, including the complete destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17), leads to the conclusion that the threat to Israel's existence is such, that they will have no choice but unleash what they call the "Samson Option," taking down their enemies with massive retaliation in the form of nuclear warfare. The following scriptures describe this "Great Middle East War": Psalm 83 · Isaiah 17 · Jeremiah 49 · Ezekiel 35-37 · Joel 1 · Amos 1-2 · Obadiah · Zephaniah 2 · Zechariah 9-11 Great Middle East War Before looking at the second war, note that there are two of Israel's neighbors who are not listed as aggressors in either war: Iraq and Egypt. While it is true that the Assyrians ruled over Babylon before the Babylonian empire rose, the heart of the Assyrian empire covered northern Syria and western Iraq. This is important to note, because Assyria is in the Psalm 83 confederacy. I do not believe Iraq as a nation will be an aggressor in that conflict. Iraq is better represented by the heart of the ancient area of Babylon, which is not in view in the parallel passages to Psalm 83. However, the area of Mosul is in western Iraq and is the same area of ancient Nineveh which gets destroyed in the "Great Middle East War." In recent history, the Kurds have occupied the ancient area of Nineveh. The Kurds have continuously struggled with both Turkey and the rest of Iraq. There have even been proposals made to allow the Kurds to break away and be their own country. If this occurs before the "Great Middle East War," I wouldn't rule out their direct involvement in the Psalm 83 coalition, as politically they could be considered the heart of ancient Assyria along with Syria. Another possibility is that rebels aligned with the other Psalm 83 aggressors take over the western part of Iraq before the "Great Middle East War." Interestingly, the terrorist group ISIS has laid claim to most of the territory of ancient Assyria as a result of2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.https://youtu.be/sEsdySUjffghttp:// Side: Phoebe
If there were not a God of the Bible, then how would 2000 prophesies already be fulfilled, and I'm not talking about peeling a sentence out and trying to make pieces of it fit. We have historic details, with time place and participants literally identifying them, and that matches details and in specifics and even sequence specific order!! And those in order of fulfillment have always and are now in order on purpose! As a set up on purpose! For a spring board for other prophesies which are currently in process of fulfillment, and set up and very likely and most probable for the balance "500" prophesies for future (and soon) fulfillments? . What do you want a flashing neon sign? Side: Ross
Easy. The aliens time traveled and made sure to record over 2000 events which they then put in the bible. Since they knew that those things happened, because they time traveled to the future for verification, they knew their prophecies would be fulfilled. This isn't rocket science, you know? ;) Side: Ross
Can you tell me the process of copying in the Jewish religion? Here is logic of God : He picked a people to be custodians of His written Word He input every important person, place, and event in the timeline From the beginning God charges them with strict adherance to make His Word remain intact, every jot and tittle! He tells them both orally and written say it, write it, repeat it! Like He is making his kids remember their name address and phone # to the millionth degree, as if a parent drilling kids on needed info, just in case we get disconnected in our big trip to NYC, or something! The scribes, literally copied each page, then it was checked each page through the hands of 5 to 7 other scribes, literally looking at several places, not for words to be in their spot, but every letter of every word in the right spot! The people, prophets prophesied, they killed many of them, yet they watched the word, every letter, of course usually after they killed the prophet, the declared oh man, he really was from God. Then you have that in every book they are judged for rebellion, made slaves in Egypt, and even after a miraculous salvation, rebellion. And its recorded in this book, they are charged to keep every dot and cross of a T straight. Now if you were a Jew, would you keep a book that declares you a stiff necked fool who murder their prophets and God calls them harlots over and over. Isn't the whole shebang odd and curious to you, especially with crazy prophesies that look to be very detailed and applicable? . Side: Ross
The outcome of conclusion should at minimum be factual, with accuracies to hold up at least in your foundation, especially if dismissing basic credibility of what faith is built on in the first place. Skeptic scrutiny is not credible if you are blindly or conveniently accepting inaccuracies to dismiss accuracies, where by doing you dismiss faith by a foundation of inaccuracies. Then let me tell you my experience of faith. Because I am an eyewitness of that. And its real, and I'm convinced. My faith isn't based on a mental acknowledgement of a faith that I hope exists. I have become convinced of faith by both reason and experience. And in understanding I see clearly, and in my understanding I am convinced. I would think it silly to deny your way in the world based on Hell or judgement, especially if you are NOT convinced of God, or if Hell or Heaven exists. That's like saying Buy a wedding dress, rent the hall, and pay the caterer, even though you don't have a Bride, or Groom, or engagement, or even dating someone yet! Jesus said COUNT the cost! He actually wants us to be convinced of our decision to follow Him, and He wants us to go in to this relationship with Him, knowing we can pay the cost, knowing its worth it, and willing to pay the cost. And no one does that unless their convinced. So Jesus says, I want you to be convinced, because your commitment to Me needs to be on solid ground! - wise man builds a house compared to the idiot that builds a house - both go through the storm, idiots house falls, the one who is solid is convinced and holds up through the storms. The Rich Young Ruler WANTED to follow Jesus, He even agreed with His commandments! But Jesus says, cool you are almost there, one more thing .... the Rich Young Ruler wouldn't have worked out well, at least not making that commitment on that day, why? Jesus didn't run after him and when the disciples were like Hey Jesus, this is bad for the saving businesd, no one will be saved if you keep that up! He taught them then, what is needed to make a child of Light, where your heart is, there is your treasure. And He said people need to understand the cost, for some the cost may be someone, to others something, whatever you love He knows the heart ... Abraham loved Isaac, yet by his famous test, God said, do you love your Son more than Me? And Abraham, you can imagine how distraught the scene was, and Abraham's grief leading up to that moment, God says pass! He counted the cost and was willing to pay every last penny he had serving God. Was he convinced? Or was his faith a guess? So I never said this argument. I said count the cost, and be convinced. I showed you every reason to believe, and I added a very honest believable and relatable set of videos to satisfy your intellect. I showed you God's Word, confirming God's Word.I think people think faith is a guess. A lucky guess! We HOPE we are right, well that's not good enough! That's actually not what faith is at all. Faith is being CONVINCED of things not seen! Without faith that is CONVINCED, it is impossible to please God! Hebrews 11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Romans 8:37-39 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus Side: Ross
Were you aware, that God confirmed faith by revelation to the disciples, Jesus said, no man gave you this, but the Father has revealed it. God's honest truth, you can be convinced. It's not a blind walk in the dark, while hoping there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But, you have to be open and ask Him. Trust me, and Trust Him, He is real! And He will come in, and you will know when He has! Take a week and ask Him, if He doesn't show you, then at least you were open! In the four Gospels, fyi- which have been confirmed by historians, Jesus, disciples, dynamics, written accounts, the only rebuttels of historic confirmation are idiots with antichrist agendas. Jesus prophesied the future a bunch! Here are things He prophesied. Again in detail, and in order of sequence. Re sequence: There are several time when the Word spoken through Prophets and/or Jesus, saying things like "at the appointed time" or "put it away, its not the proper time yet, " 1- Jesus prophesied His death on the cross 2 - His Resurrection in 3 days - (FYI side note connections - Jonah in big fish for 3 days, Joseph in jail interprets 3 prisoners dreams - both came out of prison one to his death and one to be a cup bearer for the Pharoah. 2 thrives crucified next to Jesus, one of them says to Jesus he believes, and Jesus says today you will be with me in paradise, and the 2nd thief died to eternal death ) For these little connections and fulfillments everyone would have needed a computer program to detail these connections, some are obscure, hidden, yet they connect in explanation, and or prophesy, pretty wierd!) 3 - Gospel rejected by Jews, will go out to all nations of Gentiles 4 - Persecutions, martyrs, hardship, growth of the Faith against all odds, Natural disasters and pestilence wars, like never seen before - we see daily! That was not their daily experience. 5 - The difficulties of deceptions, even those who say they are His, but are not. Wolves in sheep's clothing, wheat and tares, fallen away believers lazy from waiting. Wind storms deceptions and what effects they will have on faith 6 - Destruction of the Temple - in 70 AD 7 - Peter betrayal x 3 before the rooster crowed 8 - The Betrayer - with the kiss of a friend - Judas 9 - The way and manner and severity of His crucifixion 10 - the death of Peter, crucified also - The only disciple Jesus told this would happen to, and in what manner! 11 - That John would not be martyred! 12 - That even as scared rabbits who were all scattered cowering in fear during His trial and crucifixion, that these same men would be bold as lions, after He sends them the Holy Spirit. . Jesus outlines has a bunch of jobs in the life of believers. From Helper, to Interpreter, to Teacher, to Empower in boldness, courage, and what to say and when to say it, to make us born again of His Spirit, and to help us overcome and renew, and fill us with light and love. Think of this a moment; before crucified, Jesus says to Peter, you will deny me 3 times you all will be scattered soon, and will hide, in fear. If there was no Resurection, and no Holy Spirit what happened to all these people within 10 days of cowering in fear? Now I can see if one or 2 or 3 mustered up some psychology to be bold as lions, and face death which most did, and Peter crucified upside down! But how did all of them become that courageous and bold? Drugs? Explain, it's too strange to dismiss as a natural event, again, I can see 1 , 2, or 3 mustering up courage, but all of them, and 500 more, and everyone they converted after in those beginning church years. Even Saul a murderer of Christian, that would be like giving Slapshot a magic shocking device to torment Christians whenever he wants. Lol. Saul became PAUL, killing the diseases of Christianity, knocked of a horse, blinded, and it was recent that he led in killing one of God's best, Stephen! So how? Why? How does it make sense to one day be a murder of people, hating Christians and Christianity, go from that to the most prominent of all the Appostles? It's too crazy and weird, and unusual, and unlikely, and miraculous to not believe! _ "31 Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered.’ 32 But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee.” 33 But Peter said to Him, “Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” 35 Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You.” All the disciples said the same thing too. . Side: Phoebe
Jesus says in darkness we are in chains and bondage and held captive, enslaved. So you, who can't see says you are free. And the One who say He is the Creator says you are chained and held captive in the darkness, Who then is correct? Hmm, I wonder? John 8 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” Luke 4 16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed, 19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.” 20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 And all were speaking well of Him, and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips; and they were saying, “Is this not Joseph’s son?” 23 And He said to them, “No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” Side: Phoebe
What I am saying is that it is not at all possible afrer weighing evidence to be absent of a Divine Intruder! Whether you see it or not is a different discussion. That's a issue of your heart, and you may want to give time for God to show you, then decide who God is and what He is like. When all the evidence is weighed the probability of cell mutations resulting in its final outcome by selective mutation is far fetched, illogical, and unreasonable! It takes more faith for evolution than for an Intelligent Designer! And when other evidence is weighed, then it is so heavy in weight that it is not probable, and not possible without an Intelligent Designer that is involved intricately as a Divine Intruder with purpose intent and outcome Predetermined from the beginning by a Divine Savior, Judge, and Ruler with a Pure undefined kingdom of a gazillion children transfered from bodies of sin and death to follow in the Resurection prepared as the way to go from one event to the element of Eternal beings in body form like the King of Kings, Jesus, the 1st born Son of many adopted brethern, made sons and daughters with the Spirit giving our spirits the Spirit of adoption which calls the Father Abba Father. The Bible says even nature groans as in birthday's awaiting the reveal of the children of God. Last days prophesies, all sound like the earth itself is worn and regurgitating man's occupation of the earth. Old Testament - instruction, but also prophesy, and also explanation - God gives the 7th day a rest for man, it's very peculiar though, He also commanded a 7th year rest for the poor tired earth. If each day is as a thousand years as told in Peter's letters, then we are in Day six, and the earth is regurgitating with earthquakes, disasters, man's atrocities, and depravity, the growth of hate, and even the very elect would fall if time were not cut short. And regarding Satan and the image of the beast, see Daniel and Nebakanezers Dream, where He was made a Beast for 7 years, and made to eat grass. .... These are Biblical puzzle pieces of prophesy. The Holy Spirit is the Interpretor. Past prophesy is easy to see as fullfilled in history, but even easy to see can be obscured to the stubborn hard heart, so even if visibly accurate in detail, the spiritually blind still might not be able to see it. Not much we can do about that, free will guides you, a hardened heart makes for judgement. And that judgement is to be blind and deaf when it's right in front of you, groping in darkness, God lets darkness take you over, sealing you with the Mark of the Beast and His Image. Daniel 3:1 [ The King’s Golden Image ] Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width six cubits; he set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. . Again in Daniel: 31 While the word was in the king’s mouth, a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is declared: sovereignty has been removed from you, 32 and you will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling place will be with the beasts of the field. You will be given grass to eat like cattle, and seven periods of time will pass over you until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes.’ 33 Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled; and he was driven away from mankind and began eating grass like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws. . Side: Phoebe
We cannot begin to gave a discussion because we are not even on the same playing field. I am starting out from the position that the bible is suspect. You appear to use the bible as the foundation of your argument. But since my position is that the bible is suspect, you have zero chance of convincing me. To further complicate matters, prophecy is open to interpretation because it does not name people's name, the name of places, nor mention dates. This means that it is up to the person doing the interpretation to state, this prophecy relates to this person on this date and at this time. To which I say, "Really? Well, I beg to differ." And then provide my own interpretation. One of which can be, "that hasn't happened yet." That basically boils down to prophecy not being admisible. I don't know what you can say to change my mind if I won't accept the bible nor prophecy as evidence. Side: Phoebe
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Evolution is highly supported yes, although it is a theory. Don't get me wrong, I believe in evolution, and I understand that it takes a large amount of evidence and irrefutability for a hypothesis to become a theory, but saying that there's no tinsy, bitsy, bit of a possibility that the theory is wrong is just having a closed mind. Side: Phoebe
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You can "see" evolution. You can't observe it through fossils like Ross suggested, but we've seen it through Peppered Moths in the industrial age. Peppered Moths had higher frequencies of white-bodied moths Pre-Industrial era, but when soot became more common and was absorbed into tree bark, black-bodied moths were of higher frequency. Once the 1900's rolled around and this soot became less common, white-bodied moths became more common once again. Side: Phoebe
Exactly right! Peppered moths are an excellent example of how we can sometimes still see Evolution is progress, or the results of a recent evolutionary process. The so-called "super bugs" are another example. Since the over-prescribing of antibiotics by physicians over the past five decades or so, many bacterium have evolved so as to be immune to traditional antibiotics. MRSA is an example of this. Same deal with viruses. They have evolved and mutated as well, making them ever more difficult to eradicate. We can see vestiges of our very own (homo sapiens) Evolution by looking at some present physiological aspects of our own bodies. Like your Coccyx..which is the remnants of your tail. Body hair. Fight or Flight response too! Why do you get goose bumps when you are scared? Because when we had fur it was a tactic to make the fur stand up straighter, thus making us appear larger and more fearsome to our potential enemies. Here are some other ways we can see Evolution in progress... Side: Phoebe
OMG the video is awesome. And its accurate. Phoebe is so simple but the holes in evolution are simple, and the answer is simple. But many scientists have evolved to NOT ask questions they can't answer because they are simply too challenging. Now in modern day science and archeology there is more concern with controlling the outcome of science research than research. Science and related studies spend every dollar and every hour of research on weighing data that supports their theories, a variety of theories I add, and each only admit evidence relative to the whole of their theory. But dismiss evidence that poses a challenge to their overall theories. That's pseudo-science ! While Biblical Historic and Prophetic credible evidence shows the origin not even related to the method, should be addressed and answered also! Side: Phoebe
Biblical evidence, have any of you made it thorough honest investigation? Why would one avenue of study be superior in selection of evidene having exclusive science evidence in bio studies, that still leave questions. How is it objective true investigation, while leaving out of consideration copious amounts of evidence? There are patterns of evidence in archeology, and history that need to be considered as evidence included for comple investigation. And also Prophetic fulfillments. Math Science History - if you have a historical facts that has some unexplained scientifically, you can't ignore it because of science. You have to confirm th3 events historically then answer them with science. So I'm saying that without weighing them and answering them then your scientific determinations regarding God are scientifically incomplete and is faulty because your investigation is void, because your are selective only of evidence that supports your conclusion, while ignoring evidence that challenges. Watch Patterns of Evidence - on Netflix start there,with an intent to discuss if there is evidence for proof of God The " lack of finding" are lies, incompetence, and a lack of field integrity" Evidence found is strong and detailed, and in excellent condition, reflective as written in the Bible. So then, take some of these stories like Joseph, it is both history and pre-foretold prophesy, then consider the story. Joseph somehow knew through a dream interpretation that a famine would strike with a specific eta for the start of it, and Joseph went from Slave to most honored man in Egypt, preparing them for 7 years of famine, whereby Egypt grew in wealth and might! And these archeological findings confirm the story, see Patterns of Evidence - documentary. There are factors that defy math probability, and science. And even if explained by science, was it purposeful intrusion to have the coincidence of perfect timing? Side: Phoebe
. Prophetic fulfillments are often met with bogus defensive barriers that truth resistent unbelievers raise to close the door to any real review of challenges, of real truth to their comfortably familiar deceptions. Truth resistent unbelievers often raise unrealistic expectations in applying prophecies to their historical fulfillments. Empty arguments based soley on unrealistic under-whelmed attitudes. Not any real value rebuttals raised to any of my argument points of Bible prophesy. No logical explanation of the differences frpm prophesy and its fullfillment. How details how it doesnt apply, or historic value, or to my many points of evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt." Yet somehow, these mumbo jumbo arguments are raised based on how the truth resistent say they "feel under-whelmed at the evidence presented." And that's the only lame argument? ..... Really? These are empty arguments by any measure when we take in consideration the many rare and unususual biblical events. Biblical history often following the least likely course of direction, through the most unusual sequences of events, with the most unpredictable fantastical, supernatural outcomes. Accuracy of biblical history is confirmed through linguists, historians, and archaeologists, and validated through more recent digs which uncovered many artifacts notably in an order of occurrence of events, in expected locations, lwith artifacts and many findings of biblical proportions. Against all odds and probability, land mark events in biblical history seem to follow an atypical chain of events. Taking the most unusual course of direction, each history least expected outcome that one event, let alone many events found in fantastic biblical historical accounts, as documented per account found in the Bible. Natural progression would be low unlikely to follow of the sequence in chain of events and outcomes, in combination of 1000s of prophetic of know fulfilled prophesies of men and nations. Circumstances and landmark events following patterned against all odds outcomes in land mark biblical events, against all odds key movement through every generation took unlikely improbable often impossible odds, but as if fatefully outcome had a known outcome. . Side: Ross
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