Return to CreateDebate.comjaded • Join this debate community

Joe_Cavalry All Day Every Day


Debate Info

3
3
I've always thought that way Wait...., What? No!
Debate Score:6
Arguments:5
Total Votes:6
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 I've always thought that way (2)
 
 Wait...., What? No! (3)

Debate Creator

joecavalry(39806) pic



The government is violating my civil rights by not subsidizing me.

The government can hand out benefits as it sees fit.

For example, when the government hands out farm subsidies, am I being discriminated against since I'm not a farmer and I don't get my share?  Are my civil rights being violated if I don't get the same benefits? No.

Civil and political rights are a class of rights and freedoms that protect individuals from unwarranted government action and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights

For example, gay marriage is not a right because the government is not denying gays anything except benefits (not rights).  The government can hand out benefits as it sees fit.  Just because gays call these benefits rights does not make them rights.  They are benefits.

Some would argue that gays are unable to participate in the civil life of the state.  But gays are cohabiting and having sexual relations without government interference.  They are participating in the civil life of the state.  They can have a "wedding" without fear of being thrown in jail.  They can tell people they are married without consequence.  They just can't say that they are married in order to get benefits.

But what about the discrimination or repression?  Well, we have hate crime laws and laws against discrimination based on sexual preference.  And, no, the government is not discriminating or repressing gays by not giving them certain benefits.  Just as the government is not discriminating against me by not giving me farm subsidies.  Besides, civil unions give same sex partners the same benefits as married couples so the whole thing is moot.

I've always thought that way

Side Score: 3
VS.

Wait...., What? No!

Side Score: 3
2 points

Currently, the government is protecting gay couples from divorce. That is an unwarranted government action. Gays should be allowed to participate in all aspects of civil life without discrimination or repression. The government is discriminating against gays by not letting them get divorce. The government is repressing gays by not allowing them to get a divorce. If they can't get married, they can't get a divorce. Let gays get married so that they can then get a divorce.

Side: I've always thought that way

I created this debate because I wanted to be on the "Wait...., What? No!" side for once. Oh, and also because I get a lot of mileage out of debates on this topic ;)

Side: Wait...., What? No!

Civil and political rights are a class of rights and freedoms that protect individuals from unwarranted government action and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights

When I think about civil rights being violated I think about people getting sprayed with a fire hose and being kicked while on the ground. I think about a bunch of law enforcement officers with guns, rubber bullets, pepper spray, tear gas, billy clubs. I think about doors being broken down and people dragged out by the hair in the middle of the night. Now that's what I call repression.

When I think about discrimination I think about quality of life of the group being discriminated against. For example, I think about the low quality of the schools or the living conditions of the group being discriminated against. I think about how they are forced to behave differently than the rest of society like sitting on the back of the bus and being forcefully segregated from the other citizens. That's what I call discrimination.

And in both instance (repression and discrimination) people end up in jail.

So it's hard for me to see gays as being a repressed group or a group that is discriminated against. I mean, gays can vote. They have political representation. There are gays holding political office. I don't see gays being thrown in jail for being openly gay and doing what gays do.

When people tell me that gays are being denied civil rights and I ask what rights, they can't answer me or (if they do respond) they point to marriage benefits. but benefits are not rights and the government grants benefits as it sees fit.

Does this mean I hate gays? No. Does it mean that I believe that they should not get the same benefits as married, heterosexual, couples? No. Does it mean that I'm a homophobic? No.

What it does mean, however, is that I do not see the connection between the gay movement for gay marriage and the civil rights movement. It means that I do not equate benefits with rights. It means that I don't understand what the fuss is all about when civil unions give gays the same benefits as married, heterosexual, couples. And finally, the most important one of all, it means that I don't support hyperbole as an argument (no matter how good the cause may be). ;)

Side: Wait...., What? No!
1 point

The problem with gay marriage is gay divorce. The last thing we need is more people clogging up the legal system.

Side: Wait...., What? No!
1 point

Oh, now there's a good reason for not letting them get married!!!

Side: I've always thought that way