Mousa Abu Marzook is one of the founders of Hamas and its deputy political bureau chief. He was born in Gaza and lived in the United States for 14 years.... and he's NOT happy.
I place blame on no one who doesnt deserve it and ive always found that insinuation of yours that i blame america based on some weird personal hatred to be highly insulting, heres the answer to your question (please watch its only 7 mins long):
Second, I could have been talking about Ax... why assume I was talking about you? Also, if I was talking about Ax, I know he wouldn't get all bent out of shape about it! Geesh Gary! Lighten up!
Ok fair enough im being quite harsh i admit it, but im pretty sure you were talking about me as if i thought you weren't i wouldn't ahve made the comment.
I enjoy reading your arguments with Garry that go all the way from disputed to supported. I always smile when I'm doing it cuz I know that it will end up with supported arguments. Nice relationship you've got there.
What could go wrong, hmmmm, lets see, the Isrealis will launch an attack on the palestinians when the claim what they are legally entitled to under international law, they'll be backed 100% by the US, they'll probably slaughter thousands, and then blame it on the palestians just like they did in the so called "Gaza war" more correctly known as the Gaza massacre.
The fact is no matter what your opinion on Palestine you have to acknowklege that the USA is a completely unfair broker in making a lasting peace. The Palestinian peoplpe are at their wits end, they have no options but to go to the UN, for the last 20 yrs they have negotiated, they have made extraordinary concessions (see palestian papers:http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/ ), more than they ever had to under international law, more than any ordinary palestian would have agreed to as their government (Fatah) was in the posket of the US, Isrela still refused and have continually expanded their settlements illegally on palestian land, this is a fact, and now they are being told by Isreal and the USA that they must come back to the negotiating table while settlements are still being constructed at this very moment, the USA and Isreal just want the palestians to acquiesce while they slowly eradicate their homeland.
People in the West are finally taking notice of these crimes, they are finally seeing through Isreals massive propaganda machine despite western media being totally biased in favour of Isreal, they are finally stting up and taking notice of the crimes against humanity being perpetrated by the Isrealis, even if their government aren't.
Another Palestinian sympathizer and Jew hater. You probably also are a Democrat and love Obama. LOL
To address your points.
As I said,,this conflict dates back to Abraham. Arabs hate Jews, it would not matter where Jews live, Islam wants them DEAD, GONE. Not surprising as their Holy book says to slay them where ever you find them....the unbeliever. Israelis live in terror on a daily basis. Since the failure of the Oslo peace process in 2000....they have been killed by the hundreds by suicide bombers, driveby shootings....acts of terrorism. I read somewhere that the deaths total over 24,000 Israelis. So by 9-11 standards that act of terrorism was nothing in comparison to what Israelis live with.
They want all the land not some of it. Funny that Israel won the land in a war. How many countries give back land after a war?
Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri said, "They want peace and security, and they want to occupy our land. It;s impossible."
Arafat had this to say in Sweden after he received his peace prize. (What a joke)
“Within five years we will have 6-7 million Arabs living on the West Bank and Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbekians, and Ukrainians as Jews we can import all kinds of Arabs. We plan to ILIMINATE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ESTABLISH A PALESTINIAN STATE. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs… They will give up their dwellings and leave for the United States. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem."
Dr. Atallah Abu al-SAbh who is a writer for the Hamas newspaper wrote this discussing anthrax.
“If I may give you a word of advice, enter the air of those “symbols” (America and Israel), the water faucets from which they drink and the pens with which they draft their traps and conspiracies against the wretched peoples…turn bodies of the tyrants into matches slowly and gradually.”
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed, the London based founder of Hizb al-Tahrir (Islamic Liberation Party) said in an interview: “American people must reconsider their foreign policy or their children will be sent back to them in coffins (especially because of the stationing of troops in the Middle East)…(the existence of Israel) is a crime. Israel must be removed….Our duty is to work to establish an Islamic state anywhere in the world, even in Britain.”
Muhammed Mustagab in his column for the Egyptian newspaper Al-Usbu described his reaction to watching the world trade center towers fall: "(Those moments of) exquisite, incandescent hell were the most beautiful and precious of my life…..The generations of the past, and with Allahs help, the generations to come, will envy us for having witnessed these images."
Islam a religion of love? LMAO Palestinians....loving people? Come on.........
Two so called moderate Muslim leaders Abduahman Alamoudi who was the President of the American Muslim Council, and Muzammil Saddiqi, spiritual leader of the Islamic society of Orange County. These two clerics were chosen by the U.S administration to represent moderate Islam to the American masses after 9-11. They appeared with Bush as Bush so carelessly stated that Islam was a religion of peace not hate. Both men joined the president three days after the terrorist attack in a televised memorial service at the National Cathedral in Washington D.C, where in fact Saddiqi was given the honor of offering the opening prayer.
BUT............ These so called moderates who were selected to calm us down over Islamic terrorism, were later shown on television days later (Fox News videotape) at a Washington D.C rally supporting terrorist organizations and openly denouncing the United States. This was all caught on TAPE. The media chose not to concentrate on it however......should that surprise us?
I quote Alamoudi,"Hear that Bill Clinton:We ALL are supporters of Hamas. Allahu akbar. I am a supporter of Hizbullah. Anybody supports Hizbullah here?" After these remarks SAddiqi said I quote,"The United States is directly and indirectly responsible for the plight of the Palestinian people. If you remain on the side of injustice, the wrath of God will come..."
Mufti Ikrama Sabri said, “Jerusalem is a symbol for every Muslim in the world. The claim of the Jews to the right over it is false and we recognize nothing but an ENTIRELY ISLAMIC Jerusalem and under ISLAMIC supervision.”
And you think they are full of love and only want the land? LOL
I honestly don't know where to begin with disputing this, your disregard for human suffering and lack of compassion tells me that your far too politcally, ideologically and religiously indoctrinated to accept (or take seriously) anything i write based soley on the fact that it differs from your own views.
That said im going to provide a rebuttal as im not going to let you get away with that hate filled response.
"Another Palestinian sympathizer and Jew hater"
So in your mind just because i sympathise with the plight of the palestian people i am automatically a Jew hater as well. You do realise that from my perspective the two are collectively exhaustive, i find the accusation that i am a Jew hater or an anti-semite of any kind to be highly insulting and based only on your own prejudice. I dont even need to mention the many Jewish organisation's, Isreal organisations, and Jews and Isreal's who oppose the Isreal governments inhuman treatment of the palestian's, but im sure they're Jew haters and anti-semites aswell, just like Jimmy Carter after he wrote the book "Peace not Apartheid.
"You probably also are a Democrat and love Obama. LOL"
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
"As I said,,this conflict dates back to Abraham. Arabs hate Jews, it would not matter where Jews live, Islam wants them DEAD, GONE. Not surprising as their Holy book says to slay them where ever you find them....the unbeliever. Israelis live in terror on a daily basis."
I find this use of religious hatred to be quite disgusting and only serves to demonstrate how unelightened you are.
"Since the failure of the Oslo peace process in 2000....they have been killed by the hundreds by suicide bombers, driveby shootings....acts of terrorism. I read somewhere that the deaths total over 24,000 Israelis. So by 9-11 standards that act of terrorism was nothing in comparison to what Israelis live with.""
How does this argument make sense to you, seriously, watch how i deconstruct it please, if you consider yourself to be even slightly open minded dont dismiss this, and please feel free to question anything i write.
(1)OK, the first thing i take issue with is your assertion that 24,000 Isrealis have been killed, you haven't exactly stated since when (or what the source is), i mean have 24,000 been killed since 1967, since 2000, when??
I tell you what the facts are: Since the 29 spetember 2000 6430 palestians have been killed in the conflict while 1084 Isrelais have been killed, this isnt propaganda, this is sourced from the Isreali human rights organisation B'Tselem i.e.
Now im prepared to accept that the numbers aren't everything, imean what about Isreali fear, anxiety etc. etc. Well in order to talk about that you must also talk about Palestian fear and anxiety right, i mean unless you think they are animals incapable of feeling such emotions. lets take the Gaza war as an example, how do you think it felt to have you city bombarded with bombs and white phosphurous (used illegally to burn people (and children to death))?, how do you think it felt for the many families running and cowering in feart with nowhere safe from the bombs (hospitals and even a UN compound were bombed) that were completely leveling their city? How do you think this compares to the rockets amd mortars that Hamas sends out, really id like to know how you reconcile this Isrealis agression with palestian agression.
(2) The second thing i take issue with is your comaparison with 9/11 deaths, why compare it to 9/11, why not compare it to any of the other many examples of atrocities worldwide, why are so fixated on 9/11, it seems that US citizens are unaware of other terrorist attacks other than the one inflicted upon them. Here why not compare it to the 1.2 million Iraqis that have died as a direct result of the US invasion, now you have probably never heard that number before but i assure its the most reliable and respected estimate of Iraqi civilian casualites available.
How can you say that when they have not yet been given what they are legally entitled to and the fact that even Hamas an orgamnisation im sure you think are evil terrorists (while isreal are saints) have signed up to settling the conflict based on the June 1967 borders
Funny that Israel won the land in a war
Its funny how in one sentence you can show your baltant disregard for international law. Also, i can assure you they wouldn't have won that war had they not been given unlimited military aid by the US, they were supplied with as much of the most advanced and sophisticated weaponry (tanks, helicopters, heavy artillery, plaenes etc.) as they required to win the war, if you don't beleive me go look at the history.
""How many countries give back land after a war?""
Well since that law was enacted by the UN after WW2 all countries have had to abide by it, it was the basis for the first gulf war (which im sure you were in favour of), Isreal is one of the very few exceptions, as they are backed by the worlds dominant imperial power.
""Arafat had this to say in Sweden after he received his peace prize. (What a joke)........
Dr. Atallah Abu al-SAbh who is a writer for the Hamas newspaper wrote this discussing anthrax.......
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed, the London based founder of Hizb al-Tahrir (Islamic Liberation Party) said in an interview:......
Muhammed Mustagab in his column for the Egyptian newspaper Al-Usbu described his reaction to watching the world trade center towers fall:"
Why must you use the hateful words of extremists on the side of the palestians to justify your own extreme views? Do you think that words that are just as extreme have not been made on the Isreali side? If so do you want me to provie you with some examples? why can you not see past the words and look at the source of hatred? Do you think it is based only on some raw instinctual hatred of religious proportions or coulr there be something else responsible for it? Please take the time to answer these questions, i would greatly appreciate it.
"Islam a religion of love? LMAO Palestinians....loving people? Come on.........
I have known many people of the Islamic faith and i have also known of many people of the islamic faith none of which claim it to be violent faith, in fact my understanding is that those who consider it to be a violent faith are in the minority on both sides. Also, how can say such a thing about the palestian people and not the Isrealis, can you not see the hypocrisy in that statement.
"BUT............ These so called moderates who were selected to calm us down over Islamic terrorism, were later shown on television days later (Fox News videotape) at a Washington D.C rally supporting terrorist organizations and openly denouncing the United States. This was all caught on TAPE."
Please send me the link for this, i would very much like to see it, also in case you are unaware fox news is not considered by anyone (and mean anyone) with even a basic level of intelligence to be a credible spurce of information. everyone knows everything reported on that news station is pure unadulterated propaganda, often completely based on fiction. It has no credibiliy, none!!!! But you should know this.
"The media chose not to concentrate on it however......should that surprise us?"
Yes it should actually all western media (particularly american) has been lost no oppurtunity to present Islamic hatred and terrorism as the big evil, i ond't by wjhat basis you make that assertion it seems to run contrary to reality.
"We ALL are supporters of Hamas. Allahu akbar. I am a supporter of Hizbullah. Anybody supports Hizbullah here"
why are you incapable of recognising the terrorist acts iof the US, or Isreal, do not realsie that they have committed acts that very few other terrorist organisations can compared to. It seems to me that views are just far too polarised to understand what i mean but i hope you are open to questioning them.
"The United States is directly and indirectly responsible for the plight of the Palestinian people"
This is a perfectly valid statement based on fact and not rhetoric. For the past 20 years the US has consistently blocked a peace settlement from being reached and settled based on the palestian legal entitlement i.e. 1967 borders. This is voted on every year in the UN, every year the result is the same, the US and Isreal on one side the rest of the world on the other but due to the US infuence and veto power they cannot enforece it, were it not for the US inten blokcing this resolution the conflict wouuld have been resolved decades ago, PLEASE INVESTIGATE THIS IF YOU DONT BELEIVE IT.
"And you think they are full of love and only want the land? LOL"
Now i think the full of hate after having to endure the kind of treament you or i cannot comprehend but i beleive that if they were given their legally entiled homeland they may begin to realise that they have somehting to hold onto, currently they are being effectively extreminated and you would be foolish to think that any people will sit back while their land is being stolen from under them.
I don't know about anyone else here but to answer the following question
how do you think it felt to have you city bombarded with bombs and white phosphorous (used illegally to burn people (and children to death))?
I would feel like an idiot for letting Hamas use shitty rockets and mortars when a massive Israeli retaliation is almost a certainty. I would feel like an idiot after realizing that a massive Israeli retaliation is exactly what Hamas wants so that they can go an cry about it to the UN. I would feel like an idiot after realizing that Hamas is making martyrs of my family members so that they have something to cry about at the UN.
How many times has Israel launched a massive attack after Hamas fired some shitty rockets and mortars? What was the aftermath? Did the Palestinians make any headway? How many Palestinians have to die for every Israeli killed before Hamas realizes that their tactic does not work? 2 to 1? 5 to 1? Is Hamas really that stupid? Does Hamas really care about the plight of their people?
"I would feel like an idiot for letting Hamas use shitty rockets and mortars when a massive Israeli retaliation is almost a certainty."
Actually Hamas had srupulously observed the ceasefire that was in place, Isreal broke it by killing 6 Hamas official who were building tunnels (you know to break the illegal and inhuman blockade against Isreal). Go look into thte matter before making spurious assumptions.
"I would feel like an idiot after realizing that a massive Israeli retaliation is exactly what Hamas wants so that they can go an cry about it to the UN"
Really you think Hamas wanted their entire city Gaza destroyed, and many of them killed, i admit they did gain alot PR wise but do you really think they wanted it cause if you do i have to say thats a pretty fucked up piont of view to hold given what took place there, and do you think that clear Isreal of one shred of guilt?
"I would feel like an idiot after realizing that Hamas is making martyrs of my family members so that they have something to cry about at the UN. "
You have an incredibly fucked up perspective you know that, so what if Isreal Nukes gaza does hamas want that as well, i mean that would really be something to complain to the UN with, are you sure they doint just want some sort of freedom based on their legal entitlement (as they have agreed on).
"How many times has Israel launched a massive attack after Hamas fired some shitty rockets and mortars? What was the aftermath? Did the Palestinians make any headway?"
No their attacks are completely symbolic, just like when Palestian children throw stones at Isreali tanks but what else can they do, their homeland is being slowly stolen, and they are losing their identity in the process, Isreal is committinf a slow genocide.
Yes unlike fatah they are not in the pockets of US power and they were unwilling to sell their people down the river in the recent palestian paers revelation covered on Al Jazeera
"why dont other Islamic nations come to their aid"
A combination of fear of US and Isreali repression adnd the fact that the US can control the actions of most of them as they are their puppet government and thus the US has unrivaled soft power in the region which is being threatened by the recent arab spring which the us IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT IN FAVOUR OF E.G. the US removed Egypt from the conflict at camp david as they knew they were a force to reckoned with, thei was done by installing the right opeople in power (i.e. Mubarak) and offering enormous reparation to the corrupt egyptian elite.
For the past 20 years the US has consistently blocked a peace settlement from being reached and settled based on the palestian legal entitlement i.e. 1967 borders. This is voted on every year in the UN, every year the result is the same, the US and Isreal on one side the rest of the world on the other but due to the US infuence and veto power they cannot enforece it, were it not for the US inten blokcing this resolution the conflict wouuld have been resolved decades ago
So for the last 20 years the world has been beating their heads against the wall. They have not made any head way and instead of changing tactics they keep at it year after year hoping that they can win simply by passing the same resolution every year.
Or maybe the world is happy with the way things are. Maybe the world is happy knowing that they can take the "high moral ground" and that nothing will come of it. The world has become complacent knowing that all they have to do is say, "We'll try again next year." Regardless of how many Palestinians die. They can end the death and destruction but it is not their families paying the price and they have Israel to blame for those deaths.
The resolution to the conflict would have been resolved decades ago if they would just give up any hope of ever going back to the 1967 borders.
"So for the last 20 years the world has been beating their heads against the wall. They have not made any head way and instead of changing tactics they keep at it year after year hoping that they can win simply by passing the same resolution every year."
No, its one big game of geopolitics, nobody here is trying to dispute that but you see when you have this thing called international law to revent oh i dunno WW3, the your suppose to at least pretend to abide by it. Now what is this really about, when faced with the facts you just find another form of justifcation, go you not think if the majority of the people in the US had all the inforamtion pertaining to the conflict, you know all that information that is purposely withhled from them, that they would do the moral thing and settle the conflict based on the 1967 borders UN resolution as has been agreed by Fatah and Hamas, and end once and for all Isreal imperialism and inhuman treatment of the Palestians?
"Or maybe the world is happy with the way things are. "
In every line you write you write your bias is clearly discerbible, the suntext of your narrative is easily deciphered, i can tell you probably withold quite extremem opinions with regard to this conflict, let me ask you a question, do you think the palestians have a legal entitlment to the land Isreal accquired by war in 1967, and do you agree that all settleers currently living on occupired palestian territory are there illeglly and should be forced to leave?
"Maybe the world is happy knowing that they can take the "high moral ground" and that nothing will come of it."
We both know (well i do anyone) this is bullshit, this is just you trying to rationalise the way you feel about this as you know it runs contrary to what is truly moral in this conflict. Now we both no there are very few conflcits the world over that stirs more emotion in people that this one, to make a statemtn like the above and to actually beleive it is complete self delusion of the kind that anyone will see through.
"The resolution to the conflict would have been resolved decades ago if they would just give up any hope of ever going back to the 1967 borders."
You either think one of two things 1) Isreal is actually willing to offer something tangible that looks some what like a palestian state, with all the associted freedoms (i.e. trade, police, army etc.) 2)You know that Isreal is offering something completely inadequate, something that could in no way be called a country with very limited freedoms, more like a few palestian towns or Bantustans situated inside a much greater Isreal, and completely separateed by "Isreal Only" highways, but you deceitfully conceal this as you know it hurts your argument.
Noiw i really hope its number 1, cause i can tell you that the truth of what is being offered by the Isrealis is number 2, read the palestian papers: http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/201112214310263628.html
And here is a very informative ebate with Norman Finkelstein and Former isreali foriegn minister Shlomo Ben-Ami: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
Garry said, "What could go wrong, hmmmm, lets see, the Isrealis will launch an attack on the palestinians when the claim what they are legally entitled to under international law, they'll be backed 100% by the US, they'll probably slaughter thousands, and then blame it on the palestians just like they did in the so called "Gaza war" more correctly known as the Gaza massacre."
And this is not a cruel statment...? This shows that you are one sided....and are pro-palestinian and that you agree with them that the Jews are wrong on every level. So don't give me crap about my post is all full of hatred. I provided you WITH FACTUAL STATEMENTS BY THE PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES. These statements show that they are not interested in the land perse. They want the Jews and Christians out of there and will go to any method to make this happen. What did I post that was bogus?
If you are not a Jew hater then wow.....wow....you have a funny way of showing it. You did not present ONE thing that the Palestinians have done wrong....you provided no act of violence, nothing against the Jewish citizen. Your views are ONESIDED. If there is prejudice shown its by you. Your posts speak for themselves.
I said this conflict dates back to Abraham. The fact that you cant see this shows that you really do not understand the nature between the conflict. If you ask any Muslim living in the ME they would back up my claim. This is an unholy war and all about the hatred between three religions. Do you think that if the Palestinians took over they would allow Jews to remain, to participate in government and to be a part of this sacred land they all call their own? Not on your life would they.
You mention Jimmy Carter...who without a doubt is one of the biggest traitors in American Presidential history. He will be remembered by his treasonous acts...certainly not anything while he was president, he was a failure one of the worst we have ever had until Obama. Of course his friends, the worlds most evil dictators and tyrants will fondly remember him. Certainly the Soviets loved him.......is it any wonder? He has one thing at the top of his agenda.....SELF PROMOTION. He campaigned for the Peace Prize.
I gave you quotes not from extremists...but moderates as well. One even got the peace prize...Arafat.
Why are they legally entitled to that land?
The Palestinians never had that land. They never had a nation. The newly formed group of Arab-Palestinians are seeking to create what NEVER existed. By this I mean the election of a president forming an army setting up a government presence in east Jerusalem and with Jordans agreement….founding a state-all in violation of the stipulations that were agreed upon in the Oslo Accord….WHICH PRECLUDED ANY RECOGNITION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE. That is why I said that this issue is not about land ownership. It’s about an Arab nationalist movement and Islams religious quests to eradicate the entire Jewish presence…not just from the area……FROM THE MAP. About the Oslo….it ended because of the constant acts of jihad by PALESTINIAN negotiators. Israel however continued to make unprecedented concessions of LAND to the Palestinians…even when they were under pressure from the Orthodox Jews….Rabin was assassinated. The Jews made efforts to freeze settlement expansion. They gave the Palestinians local autonomy over certain areas of the West Bank and Gaza. They were allowed to have weapons and their own armed forces to protect themselves . And if you look back…terrorism was not contained…Arafat denied any part of participating with Hamas, Hizbullah etc..which we found out that these organizations didn’t do anything without his approval. And this happened while the peace process was going on. This is about hatred………..not land.
There will never be peace because of Jerusalem. The Palestians will never compromise…they cant because of their religious beliefs. So anything the Jews would do is not enough. The city will never be divided like the Palestianians want to do and they will never get complete sovereignty over the Temple Mount. Remember when Arafat rejected the American plan (shared land) and walked out at Camp David. Had he agreed the establishment of some sort of Palestinian state might have happened.
We are now half a century into the Jewish state…and the same anti Semitism…(like the Nazi Holocaust) is alive today…we see it here on this site…with comments such as yours. It’s an all out assault against Israel. You say they should give up all the land that is not theirs. The Palestianians origins are controversial. They think the right to the land comes through Abraham…has nothing to do with where they came from. They reason that the land belongs to Ishmaels son, Abrahams first born ……But the covenant with God and given to Abraham was through Isaac. History shows that the Palestinians/arabs were not in control of this land in the 19th century. At that time it was under the control of Syria. They came to the land as part of Bedouin tribes…they came to work for the landowners who were OTTOMANS. And if you go back futher , in the 12 centuries between the Arab conquest in the 7th century and when the Jews returned in the late 1800’s, this land of Palestine was nothing but dirt…nothing on it. Who cultivated this land? The Jews did by making the land cultivated, by building cities, roads….It was only until the time between WW1 and WW2 that Arabs started coming. They came as IMMIGRANT WORKERS…because they could make good money. The Jews were already there and had done the work.
The Jews can document a presence in that land for over 2000 years. They have always been the resident citizens . It isn’t enough that the Jews have offered citizenship with all the benefits that go with it…to the Palestinaians. But they consider this an act of treason. ….so this goes to show, that there can never be lasting peace…or a compromise.
Question…..Why do you think Arab countries do not want to accept the Palestinian people? They don’t give a damn about them and use them as pawns. They use them to gain the worlds sympathy against Israel. Egypt refused them…Syria, Iraq, Libya…only Jordan accepted them and wanted to take them in. They are useful pawns……remember when the Gulf War broke out? Kuwait who employed thousands of Palestinians but still denying them citizenship, threw some 300,000 of them out. Such brotherly love eh….Islam a religions of peace. If anyone sets the Palestinian people up to fail….is the Arab nations who are using them.
I know a lot about this as my inlaws happen to be those people who won’t get in the row boat pointed to the ocean floor.
And about all the stupid people watching Fox........they go where they get fair and balanced news....CNN represents people like Dan Rather...whose demise came from his quest to alter the news because of his own hatred. We all know what happened to Rather don’t we?
To be honest again im not quite sure how to respond, and i also realise its futile to argue with someone like youbut again i feel i must as i don't want anyone who reads this to think i could not respond to this, and thus conceeded.
Garry said, "What could go wrong, hmmmm, lets see, the Isrealis will launch an attack on the palestinians when the claim what they are legally entitled to under international law, they'll be backed 100% by the US, they'll probably slaughter thousands, and then blame it on the palestians just like they did in the so called "Gaza war" more correctly known as the Gaza massacre."
Please don't just copy and paste what i have wrote if you cannit pick any flaws in it, i mean if there is something incorrect about this statement please tell me, thats how a debate is supposed to proceed. As i stated in the first post the Us is a completely unfair broker, they back Isreal regardless of their actions as an example i cited the gaza invasion. They backed Isreals massacre of 1440 people in Gaza (mostly civilians, 400 of which were children need i remind you) iniatiated by Isreal, do you remember how that happened, remember there was a ceasefire between Isreal and Hamas, well Hamas observed that ceasefire scrupolously (i.e. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klYgLSLAhuw&feature;=player_embedded) ) the Isreal went to the border of the Gaza strip and killed six hamas militants for building tunnels (you in order to circumvent the illegal blockade), they broke the ceasefire, Hamas reponded to this then Isreal went into Gaza and destroyed the place with full US backing.This is what happened, if you disagree with any of it please say and provide your evidence.
And this is not a cruel statment...?
No i don't see anything cruel or hateful about it, please tell me what is hateful or cruel about it, im merely stating the facts, these aren't up for discussion, its the truth of the matter, i know you are probably used to receiving your truth "sanitised" like how the Iraq war has been made to look so clean and the casualities downplayed and distorted in western media. If you find something offensive about hearing the truth thats your problem.
This shows that you are one sided....and are pro-palestinian and that you agree with them that the Jews are wrong on every level.
I admit i am a moral person who cannot remain impartial when i see such things being perpetrated against a group of people. There are no sides right or wrong in this conflict but one side is alot more wrong than the other and im afraid its the one you support. I dont agree that the Jews are wrong on every level, they have some justifcation to be fearful but that doesn't give them the right to do what they do. The fact is if any of the extreme things you suggest (i.e. a muslim uprising against Isreal) ever took place the international community would intervene, the fact is it wouldn't even need to as Isreal has the second most advanced mitlitary in the world plus im sure the US would stand up for its strategic ally in the ME, you use this as some excuse for the continued genocide of the palestians and then you have the guile to question my position, wheres that at?
So don't give me crap about my post is all full of hatred.
Your post was full of hatred your just too blind to see that, you think Islam is a religion of hate, and that even the moderates are in favour of terrorism, you think these views are full of hate, what exactly do think is the definition of hate maybe your using somehting different to what im using.
I provided you WITH FACTUAL STATEMENTS BY THE PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES.
Yes i know you did, i can read and interpret the words you know, and theres no need to shout. So if you think a few off the cuff remarks prove the kind extreme hateful views you espouse then ill provide you with some FACTUAL STATEMENTS BY ISREALIS THEMSELVES:
Isreali foreign minister Tzipi Livni said on Isreali tv after the Gaza massacre:"Israel demonstrated real hooliganism during the course of the recent operation, which I demanded"
Heres some very lovely quotes from Avigdor Lieberman currently Member of the Knesset, Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister of Israel :-
"What we state unequivocally is that we are completely opposed to what has been and still is the guiding principle of Israel's foreign policy: 'land for peace' ... There is either 'peace for peace' or the exchange of territory and populations."
2007 - (To an Israeli Arab fellow member of parliament :) "You are an ally in the Knesset of terrorists. I hope that Hamas will take care of you and all the rest once and for all. Don't worry, your day will come."
"If Israel has to deal with the Iranian threat by itself, it can do so."
2006 - Speaking of Israeli Arab legislators who support the Palestinian cause: "The fate of the collaborators in the Knesset will be identical to that of those who collaborated with the Nazis. Collaborators, as well as criminals, were executed after the Nuremberg trials at the end of the World War Two. I hope that will be the fate of collaborators in this house."
Following attacks by Palestian militants: "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."
In response to the proposal to release some of the many palestian people (Hamas officials in this case) being held in Isreali jails without trial as a gesture: ""It would be better to drown these prisoners in the Dead Sea if possible, since that's the lowest point in the world,"
I read in one of your arguments that Isreal is the only democracy in the ME, please read this and say that again: "http://www.rense.com/general93/inst.htm"
And here are some lovely quotes from some of the leading rabbis in Isreal:- This is a message encouraging the IDF to use Palestian civilians as human from Rabbis Yitzhak Shapira from the West Bank settlement: ""According to true Jewish values, your lives come before those of the enemy, whether he is a soldier or a civilian under protection. Therefore, you are forbidden from endangering your own life for the sake of the enemy, not even for a civilian," Shapira declared."
THIS MAYBE THE REASON THE IDF ARE INCREASING THE NUMBER OF CIVILIAN HUMAN SHIELDS (PARTICULARLY CHILDREN) THEY USE IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, IF YOU DONT BELEIVE THIS STATEMENT HERES THE PROOF, ITS NOT FROM SOME BIASED ARTICLE ITS FROM A HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATION, 15 CASES HAVE BEEN DOCUMENT SINCE 2004:"http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1621&CategoryId;=1"
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef in the run-up to the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian "peace negotiations" (notice they are in parenthesis) Rabbi Ovadia Yosef wished that "all the nasty people who hate Israel, like Abu Mazen [Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas], vanish from our world".
Rabbis Mordechai Eliyahu a leading figure in Isreali religious thought during the Gaza massacre urged the IDF not to refrain from killing palestian children in roder to save IDF lives, heres are some direct quotes "'If they don't stop after we kill 100,' said the rabbi, 'then we must kill a thousand. And if they do not stop after we kill a thousand, then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop, we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to stop them'.", ""I will pursue my enemies and apprehend them and I will not desist until I have eradicated them."
Feel free to check the veracity of these statements if you take issue with any of them, ill give you the sources if you think any are false, or taken out of context.
"These statements show that they are not interested in the land perse."
No they don't, these are the views of a minority of extremists, they demonstrate no such such thing, BTW when you say land perse ill will tacitly assume you mean the 1967 borders peace settlement outlined at the UN each year. If there was some survey done that questioned all the palestians in the West Bank and Gaza asking them whether they would rather their own state and peace based on the June 1967 borders (as is their legal entitlement) or would they rather destroy the state of Isreal, and the results showed that the majority were in favour of destroying Isreal then your hate filled comments would have some merit.
"What did I post that was bogus? "
As far as i can tell nothing, you just fail to see how none of what you posted proves the kind of extreme hateful allegations you make against the Palestians.
If you are not a Jew hater then wow.....wow....you have a funny way of showing it
I find your attempts to paint me as a hater of another religion highly insulting, especially since they are baseless.
You did not present ONE thing that the Palestinians have done wrong....you provided no act of violence, nothing against the Jewish citizen
Of course i didnt, im arguing for the palestians here, it wouldn't exactly do my argument any good to start recollecting acts of palestian agression would it? Do you even know how to debate, im trying to be objective, im not obscuring the facts, in my previous post i presented the figure since 2000, i shoed the number of Isrelais killed and the umber of palestian killed, i did not dramatise the palestian deaths, at least not to the extent to which they were untrue e.g. i said children were burnt alive with white phosphurous, this is an extreme statement but the fact is this happened during the Gaza massacre, and therefore is not a sensationalisation of the truth of what went on there. will it satify you if i mention atrocities committed by palestian militants??
"Your views are ONESIDED. If there is prejudice shown its by you. Your posts speak for themselves. "
Don't get wrong it would be completely hypocritical of me to suggest that after researching the conflict and seeing how badly the palestians have been treated i havent become baised in favour of their position, and i will openly admit this as im sure anyone readin this can tell as you have suggest but there is no predujice in what i write, predujice implies insufficient knowledge oon which to make a judgement, it implies irrationality and hostility towards to group upon which you make the judgement, i reject the assertion that my views are irrational or hostile or based on insufficient evidence, please provide me with examples of me demonstrating my prejudice. Now lets look at your prejudice, as it is plain to see to anyone resdins this, you assert that the Islamic faith is a hateful faith dedicated to the destruction of Isreal and the killing of all Jews worldwide, and you use a few off the cuff quotes and some fox nes propaganda to prove your piont, now if thats not predjudice i don't know what fuyckin is. I'm not advocating violence on either side, i dont support palestiam agression(but i do understand it), i dont want to see any Jewish people dead or living in fear, this conflict has two sides and there are two sides to every story, i understand that, the thing you fail to realise is i have looked at both, both are wrong but one is far more wrong than the other.
"I said this conflict dates back to Abraham. ....... Not on your life would they."
Again you espouse religious extremism to justify your hate, this is precisely and exactly why i called you unenlightened.
"You mention Jimmy Carter.....SELF PROMOTION. He campaigned for the Peace Prize."
Actually i take issue with this depiction of Jimmy Carter, he is widely recognised as being a humanitarian, and his peace prize was entirely justified, as i am conscious of the amount i am writing i will leave it at that but please call me up on this of you want to take issue with it.
"I gave you quotes not from extremists...but moderates as well. One even got the peace prize...Arafat."
Again i think you'll find his peace prize was justified (unlike Obamas), anyway whats the piont of this statement?
"Why are they legally entitled to that land?"
This is an incredibly stupid question, its like saying; why isnt China allowed to invade the rest of asia and setup a new asiatic empire?
"The Palestinians never had that land."
Yes i think you'll find they did, and ill think you'lll fing history proves that conclusively, they didnt just appear there, i sont what kind of false truths and propaganda you've been swallowing but i do know its left a lasting impression.
"They never had a nation"
Define nation.
"The newly formed group of Arab-Palestinians are seeking to create what NEVER existed."
This is a discussion on Shlomo Ben-Ami (former foreign minister in Isreal) on some quotes from a book he wrote on the origins of the state of Isreal:
"You have some very strong quotes in your book, of your own and quoting others, like Berl Katznelson, who is the main ideologue of the Labor movement, acknowledging that in the wake of the 1929 Arab riots, the Zionist enterprise as an enterprise of conquest. You also say, “The reality on the ground was that of an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation and at times atrocities and massacres it perpetrated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of massacres that would be carved into the Arabs' monument of grief and hatred...........................Well, I agree with the statement that there is very little dispute nowadays amongst serious historians and rational people about the facts. There is pretty much a consensus on what happened during what you can call the foundational period, from the first Zionist settlements at the end of the 19th century 'til 1948. There, there is pretty much of a consensus. And I think Mr. Ben-Ami, in his first 50 pages, accurately renders what that consensus is.
I would just add a couple of points he makes, but just to round out the picture. He starts out by saying that the central Zionist dilemma was they wanted to create a predominantly Jewish state in an area which was overwhelmingly not Jewish, and he cites the figure, I think 1906 there were 700,000 Arabs, 55,000 Jews, and even of those 55,000 Jews, only a handful were Zionists. So that's the dilemma. How do you create a Jewish state in area which is overwhelmingly not Jewish?Now, the Israeli historian Benny Morris, at one point, he said there are only two ways you can resolve this dilemma. One, you can create what he called the South African way, that is, create a Jewish state and disenfranchise the indigenous population. That's one way. The second way is what he calls the way of transfer. That is, you kick the indigenous population out, basically what we did in North America.Now, as Mr. Ben-Ami correctly points out, by the 1930s the Zionist movement had reached a consensus that the way to resolve the dilemma is the way of transfer. You throw the Palestinians out. You can't do that anytime, because there are moral problems and international problems. You have to wait for the right moment. And the right moment comes in 1948. Under the cover of war, you have the opportunity to expel the indigenous population...... Now, under international law, refugees are entitled to return to their homes once the battlefield conflict has died down. And Mr. Ben-Ami was absolutely correct. He said the key moment comes in the Israel-Palestine conflict, not when the Palestinians are expelled, but when, after the war, Israel refused to allow the Palestinians back. ”
"hat is why I said that this issue is not about land ownership. It’s about an Arab nationalist movement and Islams religious quests to eradicate the entire Jewish presence…not just from the area……FROM THE MAP."
I have responded to this hate already, your claims have no substantive basis until the palestians are given what they are legally entitled to, if they then continued to try to destroy isreal, then you may have a piont.
"Israel however continued to make unprecedented concessions oNf LAD to the Palestinians…even when they were under pressure from the Orthodox Jews"
Really, what exactly do you mean by "unprecedented concessions of LAND", and also provide me with the source that proves these claims, i have provided you with the source of the palestian papers, and the Al Jazeera reports that condense the results into hangy readable articles, they prove that Fatah (against the wishes of palestians) were willing to give up over 50% of the land they are legally entitled to, thats pretty unprecedented eespecially considering they were forced to conceded the majority of their homeland when the state of Isreal was established in 1948, the land they are entitled to represents about 20% of this yet Isreal continues to build settlements on it, this is the reason for arab violence not your hate filled notions of Islam.
"The Jews made efforts to freeze settlement expansion."
Really, was it like the moretorium placed on settlement expansion a few months back, you do know that beofre it started they laid the foundations of somthing like 500 houses as the moretorium stipulated that any houses that had been started could be finished, quite sneaky if you ask me.
"They were allowed to have weapons and their own armed forces to protect themselves "
Again show me the proof, im not saying you're wrong but i do know that under any agreement Isreal proposes now the palestian aren't even allowed a police force let alone weapons and armed forces.
"This is about hatred………..not land. "
Well if by some small chance you are right my friend you have demonstrated to me that you have plenty of the former.
"The Palestians will never compromise"
Really cause even Hamas has agreed to settle the conflcit based on the 67 borders as stipulated by the UN every year.
"So anything the Jews would do is not enough"
These words are empty, give them what they deserve what they are entitled to then make your judgements based on their actions.
"Arafat rejected the American plan (shared land) and walked out at Camp David. Had he agreed the establishment of some sort of Palestinian state might have happened. "
He walked out of camp david for a dam good reason, and its explain quite well in the discussion i referred you to above, in fact there is a video debate of it, heres the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
"We are now half a century into the Jewish state…and the same anti Semitism…(like the Nazi Holocaust)"
My God, i can't beleive you resorted to but you did, i should have expected you to use the holocaust as some wort of fucked up justification for Isreals actions, you need to get a grip, take my word for it my friend that old chestnut has been used ad infinitum and ad naseum over the years to justify Isreals actions, it held no water when it was first used and it definitely doesnt now. This only serves to show how weak your argument is, i don't mean that in an insulting way, although im sure you will take it that way but i feel obligated to call it as i see it.
"we see it here on this site…with comments such as yours. It’s an all out assault against Israel."
Yes of course any person who speaks out against Isreals grave crimes against humanity are nutball anti-semites who only want to see all Jews dead and the state of Isreal destroyed, i dont want for any harm to befall any Jewish person, or any Isreali. I dont hate the state of Isreal, i repeat i do not hate the state of Isreal, i am not an anti semite and your continued insinuation that i am only shows you for what you are, i respect all religions and the peoples of those religion, i respect all creeds and nationalities and beleifs that do not harm others, if you cannot accept this it is your problem not mine.
I am moral person, i cannot just ignore the crimes being committed against the Palestian people, im sorry you cannot understand this piont of view.
"You say they should give up all the land that is not theirs."
No they should conceed what they hold illegally under international law.
"History shows that the Palestinians/arabs were not in control of this land in the 19th century. At that time it was under the control of Syria. ..................The Jews were already there and had done the work."
Please provide the source proving this i would very much like to see, not just in trying to invalidate it. The fact still remains that the palestian people lived on that land for a long time before the Jes decided they should return to there patromonial homeland, im not one for entitlements based on religion but i do beleive if you have lived somewhere for hundres of years it is your home and nobody has the right to make you leave.
"The Jews can document a presence in that land for over 2000 years. They have always been the resident citizens . It isn’t enough that the Jews have offered citizenship with all the benefits that go with it…to the Palestinaians."
Again you present mistruths, im not even sure if you beleive these yourself, i suppose you probably do, you have to otherwise your views would be challenged.
"Why do you think Arab countries do not want to accept the Palestinian people? They don’t give a damn about them and use them as pawns."
This is completely and totally false, the arabs sympathise greatly with the plight of the Palestians who they view as their brothers, it is not in th eleast controversial to say that much of the violence in the middle east over the years was due to the treatment of the palestians by Isreal, i mean Al Queda has cited this as one of the main reasons for their Jihad.
Since the oervthrow of the US puppet dictator Mubarak Egypt has already begun to make moves to ease the suffering of th epalestian people, the blockade of Gaza has been eased greatly on Egypts side.
"They use them to gain the worlds sympathy against Israel. Egypt refused them…Syria, Iraq, Libya"
Can you not see how wrong you are here, ill explain, every country you have cited above is being ruled by a despotic, dictator who rules a repressive regime, do you think if these countries had true the democracy they would have refused the Palestians? Get a grip.
"remember when the Gulf War broke out? Kuwait who employed thousands of Palestinians but still denying them citizenship, threw some 300,000 of them out. Such brotherly love eh….Islam a religions of peace."
Again your incredibly weak justfication for Islamic hatred only shows you for what you are, of course the palestians are pawns to the dictatorial regimes that want to take advantage of theri plight to ensure political gain, in what universe does this qualify as a reason for you to make the unbeleivably arrogant and outlandish sarcastic statement "Islam a religions of peace"*
"If anyone sets the Palestinian people up to fail….is the Arab nations who are using them. "
Im sorry you are incapable fo seeing the failings in the side you support so fervently.
"I know a lot about this as my inlaws happen to be those people who won’t get in the row boat pointed to the ocean floor."
Who is going to push Isreal off the map, come on, think about it, you have continually used all the same old tired propaganda that has been debunked time and time again, can you not even admit that what is being done to the palestians is a bad thing.
I sympathize with your need to respond to this debater. I've been writing essays back and forth with her on the abortion debate. It's interesting to see that another opposing opinion has led to her labeling someone as a Nazi and claiming they hate certain ethnic/religious backgrounds. I found it all just as insulting.
She thinks I'm a Nazi because I believe abortion should remain legal. I only know she's a woman because she said she's had an abortion (Yes I know.... and she has the audacity to tell me that I contribute to abortion, practically drive people to the clinic, am a murderer and champion killing).
What do you mean? There's some stupid shit in there. Here's one, for example:
"I would feel like an idiot for letting Hamas use shitty rockets and mortars when a massive Israeli retaliation is almost a certainty."
Actually Hamas had srupulously observed the ceasefire that was in place, Isreal broke it by killing 6 Hamas official who were building tunnels (you know to break the illegal and inhuman blockade against Isreal). Go look into thte matter before making spurious assumptions.
The first person is talking about stupid shit Hamas does, in general, and you go and talk about one very specific incident.
"The first person is talking about stupid shit Hamas does, in general, and you go and talk about one very specific incident."
Call me a lunatic extremist is you wish but i dont view it as astupid thing when people are trying to free themselves from a an inhum,an and illegal blockade, i also dont think that they deserved to killed in cold blood for trying to do so, just in order to provoke Hamas into retaliating and thus provie Isreal with some pathetic and meger excuse to massacre 1400 civilians, and destroy the infrastructure of a poverty stricken densely populated gulag.
"I would feel like an idiot after realizing that a massive Israeli retaliation is exactly what Hamas wants so that they can go an cry about it to the UN"
Really you think Hamas wanted their entire city Gaza destroyed, and many of them killed, i admit they did gain alot PR wise but do you really think they wanted it cause if you do i have to say thats a pretty fucked up piont of view to hold given what took place there, and do you think that clear Isreal of one shred of guilt?
It seems to me that Hamas was too stupid to realize just how massive Israeli retaliation was going to be. Then, after the fact, they must have been, "Oh well...., let's at least get some PR by bitching to the UN."
Does it clear Israel of one shred of guilt? Who cares? The end result is the same.
"It seems to me that Hamas was too stupid to realize just how massive Israeli retaliation was going to be. Then, after the fact, they must have been, "Oh well...., let's at least get some PR by bitching to the UN.""
Ya, well if thats the small minded opinion you want to hold then fair enough, the same could be the said of the 1916 easter rising that inspired the old IRA to win Irish freedom for the first time after 700 years of mistreatment and second class citizenship.
"Does it clear Israel of one shred of guilt? Who cares?"
Well i know you dont you've made that perfectly clear.
I posted this below as well but just in case you missed it:
Joe you clearly dont see the conflict in the same light as many people, i don't want to sound arrogant but i quote the example of the 1916 easter rising, this was a completely symbolic rebellion where some of the greatest Irish men of the day made a blood sacrifice in order to gather the inertia necessary to force to British empire to leave Ireland, they knew (just as im sure the palestian people know) their efforts are meant only to perpetuate their struggle. The world is a changeable place (as demonstrated perfectly by the arab spring) and the fire of revolution if extinguished is very difficult to relight. To quote Bob Dylan "the loser now will be later to win", the plight of the palestian people has not been ignored by the rest of the world (particularly the muslim world), the source of all that terrorism your coutnry hates so much is largely fuelled by it. As i stated the arab spring may do alot to change the politics of the region
"I would feel like an idiot after realizing that Hamas is making martyrs of my family members so that they have something to cry about at the UN. "
You have an incredibly fucked up perspective you know that, so what if Isreal Nukes gaza does hamas want that as well, i mean that would really be something to complain to the UN with, are you sure they doint just want some sort of freedom based on their legal entitlement (as they have agreed on).
Legal entitlement? WTF? Who is going to enforce this... Legal Entitlement? How long have they been asking for this... Legal Entitlement? How far have they gotten by pursuing this... Legal Entitlement?
"Legal entitlement? WTF? Who is going to enforce this... Legal Entitlement? "
I don't the international community is legally and morally obliged to but has not pushed it in the face of antagonising the US. It is my view that as the complexion of ME changes countries like Egypt (assuming they gain the kind of freedom from tranny (both from the dictators and USA) will start standing up for Palestian rights, they have already partially opened up the blockade of Gaza which as infuriated ISreal
"How far have they gotten by pursuing this"
well i think they demonstrated that they're unwillinging to be pushed off of their land without a fight, they have demonstrated that they are willing to die to preserve what is theirs, now you can think what you want personally i think therre is alot of honour in that, and im far from the only one.
"How many times has Israel launched a massive attack after Hamas fired some shitty rockets and mortars? What was the aftermath? Did the Palestinians make any headway?"
No their attacks are completely symbolic, just like when Palestian children throw stones at Isreali tanks but what else can they do, their homeland is being slowly stolen, and they are losing their identity in the process, Isreal is committinf a slow genocide.
Hamas' attacks are purely symbolic and the cost of all this symbolism is the deaths of countless of Palestinians? If Israel is committing genocide, then Hamas is leading them to the slaughter house (now that's what I call real fucked up leadership).
Here, I got a question for you. Someone puts a gun to your head and says, "Give me everything you own. House, car, wallet, everything." If you fight back he shoots you in the head (dead). Your act of defiance would be seen as strictly symbolic. But the end result is the same. You end up dead and your stuff is confiscated. Everyone would say that you are Legally Entitled to your stuff but you would still be dead. So..., here's the question..., do you fight back or give up your shit? If you give up your shit, you might get a chance to come back and fight some other day once you've acquired a gun of your own. ;)
"now that's what I call real fucked up leadership"
So are you seriously fucking telling me that you beleive it would be better leadership if they sompletely surrendered and were completely subservient to ISreal? Cause if so i have to admit that pretty fucked up.
"If you give up your shit, you might get a chance to come back and fight some other day once you've acquired a gun of your own."
This anaolgy is inavlid on so many levels im not even going to list all of them, firstly, the act of defiance of one person against a man holding a gun accn ot be compared to the struggle of a people for freedom, the resistance is meant to inspire, buy resisting the man with the gunn you inspire no one, secondly, if you do give up you will not habe the chance to fight another day, again the analogy simply breaks down when applied to the palestians.
The economic success of germany and Japan cannot really attributed to their defeat in world war two, their economic success was the product of a multitude of factors altogether unrelated to their military defeat in WW2, first of all the Japanese rebuilt their economy based on the principles of statistical quality control as those developed and communicated by W. Edwards Deming, im surprised you do not know this, i suppose americans are reluctant to admit that they largely ignored the philosophy of one of their own engineers/staticians (and one the best the 19th century produced which yielded such fruitful resuls for Japan. This quality ethos that was deveoped in Japan by Demming (and later adopted by the US manufactures by necessity) massivel contributed to their economic success, this is also a large part if the reason Japanese products are so world renonwed even today.
Look into it (i.e.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming )
As for Germany i dont have the same level of insight, they were given massive aid to rebuild their society and brought back into the international community after they signed agreed to the post war condititions, also i think they are a very naturally industrious people and their own ingenuity (and not defeat in WW2) was laregly responsible for their success.
These claims are fairly empty Joe, you've done nothing to demonstrate that losing WW2 played any part in their success, and to be honest i think that argument is pretty bogus.
you've done nothing to demonstrate that losing WW2 played any part in their success
You misrepresent my words. What I said was that if they had NOT surrendered. If they had fought to the last man, then (by definition) they would never have been able to rebuild because (again, by definition) they would all be dead.
The Palestinians currently get a lot of money in aid. If they were to renounce terrorism, they would get even more and would be able to rebuild..., using that money.
The only reason i said that is because you told me previously that you were an engineer and most engineers would have heard of Edward J. Demming, i well aware of my own limitations actually but i don't feel the need to explin myself to you, you clearly already have me put in a nice narrow minded category inside your own head.
"because (again, by definition) they would all be dead."
This is am impossibility and you know it.
"If they were to renounce terrorism,"
Will Isreal renounce terrorism as well?
"they would get even more and would be able to rebuild..., using that money."
Your rationalisations just don't hold any water, im sorry if you really beleive what you are saying could occur in reality and actually work out better for the palestians.
They would have to. If Israel keeps on attacking Palestinians without provocation, even the U.S. would find it hard to stand by their side.
Your rationalisations just don't hold any water, im sorry if you really beleive what you are saying could occur in reality and actually work out better for the palestians.
Again, you assume it would NOT work. You refuse to try a new approach..., even though the old approach has proven NOT to work. It is insanity to keep on doing the same thing, over and over again and again, and expect a different result.
"They would have to. If Israel keeps on attacking Palestinians without provocation, even the U.S. would find it hard to stand by their side."
You just don't get it, Isreal will end the conflict alright, nobody is disputing this but yoiu need to see the terms they are looking for, its ridiculous, they are barely offering the palestians anytningaside from the right to inhabit a few towns in a greater Isreal, you need to find this out for yourself before you maike anymore of these self righteous arguments.
"Again, you assume it would NOT work. You refuse to try a new approach"
Again, go and find out what it is you are proposing, maybe then you may begin to realise how stupid it is for any palestian to accept these terms.
"It is insanity to keep on doing the same thing, over and over again and again, and expect a different result."
This is far from insanity actually, everything passes, and everything changes (i.e. Isreali strategic power), if they can hold out long enough they may very well end up with a their own state, on their own terms.
I understand that the terms the Israelis set are unacceptable to the Palestinians. I get it. I understand. But so what? They cannot stand against the might of the Israeli military. Japan and Germany were also forced to accept terms that they did not want to accept and both of those countries were a hell of a lot stronger the Palestinians have EVER been. If stronger armies than the Palestinians had to surrender, what hope do the Palestinians have of winning given their current lack of strength?
This is far from insanity actually, everything passes, and everything changes (i.e. Isreali strategic power), if they can hold out long enough they may very well end up with a their own state, on their own terms.
No they know exactly what they doing, i think your the one asking the stuipd questions here.
If Hamas is so smart and if they know exactly what they are doing, how come they haven't made any meaningful advancement and Palestinians keep on dying?
"If Hamas is so smart and if they know exactly what they are doing, how come they haven't made any meaningful advancement and Palestinians keep on dying?"
Well how come the IRA didnt make serious advances against the British army, how come the Chechen rebels didn't make advances against the Russian military. I know what your trying to do, this comes down to fundamental disagreement, you think its better to give up and run away like a little bitch i dont there problem solved.
Listen to yourself, how does that make sense to, what do you think would happen if the palestians stopped resisting, their future would be decided for them, you think Isreal is going to let them have their own army, you think Isrela is even gogin to let them have their own country, you should do your research before you espouse views like these cvause i can tell the reality on the groun just isnt aligned with your views. Or maybe they should just leave, you know mass exodous, then return years later with guns, do you even realise how ridiculous you sound, dont you think if there was an easier option the Palestian people would have opted for it, do you seriously think they enjoy the treatment they receive.
Let me see...., hmmmm, after WWI Germany was NOT allowed to rebuild their military and yet..., they did. Imagine that.
And you are making assumptions. You are assuming that Israel will NOT let them have their own country but the Palestinians have never done anything different to see what the outcome would be. They just assume!
What I propose is for the Palestinians to try a new tactic since the tactic they have been following for decades has NOT yielded any results. If something doesn't work for me, I stop bashing my head against the wall and I try something else.
You want them to keep doing what they have been doing for years. It doesn't yield any results but hey..., it's symbolic! The Palestinians pay for it with their blood (with the lives of their children, the future of their country) but hey..., it's honorable. And I am the one who is considered irrational? What am I missing?
"And you are making assumptions.You are assuming that Israel will NOT let them have their own country but the Palestinians have never done anything different to see what the outcome would be."
I think you'd find if you ever did any serious investigating on the matter that i am making no assumptions whatsoever, but you get ahead arrogantly say i am if it makes you feel better. If you actually want to know what the palestian authority (FATAH) weRe being offered by Isreal heres a link to the palestian papers expose: http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/201112214310263628.html , and heres a link to an excellent debate with former Isreali foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami which also provides some excellent insights into the nuts and bolts of the conflict: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
"They just assume!"
No they fuckin don't, these things have been discussed at length, the palestians are well aware of what the Isreal want to see happen, that is precisely why an agreement has never been reached, look when you make such unsubstantiated and outlandish remarks why not providing a source, cause really fron where im sitting your just blowing biased hot air.
"I stop bashing my head against the wall and I try something else"
Well ya thats why their going to the UN, but i have to stress there are very few peaceful tactics available that dont consist of just surrendering, so what do you have in mind.
"The Palestinians pay for it with their blood (with the lives of their children, the future of their country) but hey..., it's honorable.And I am the one who is considered irrational? What am I missing?"
You can't conceive of what they are fighting for, they are fighting for their identity as a people, they are trying not to be lost into the pages of history, they want what all others peoples have a state of their own, based on their own morals, religion, customs, their own society thats free socially, religiously, economically and militarily etc. etc. They want freedom, they don't want some outside party (like Isreal) who clealry doesnt have their best interests at heart (that the understatement of the century i think) determining their future. Then their revenge for their mistreatment can be the laughter of their children.
If you think a desire for freedom is irrational, i really don't think there is anything i can do to change your mind.
I don't think the desire for freedom is irrational. I think that the tactics they are using to pursue it is.
There is only one way that they will ever be able to determine their own future. They have to have their own country. The only way, that I see, for them to have their own country is for them to recognize the state of Israel.
Going to the UN is NOT going to solve the problem.... regardless of what the UN decides. If anything, it can make matters worse. If the UN recognizes a Palestinian state and the Palestinians do not make peace with Israel, if they do not recognize the state of Israel, Israel will retaliate. Whether Israel is justified in retaliating doesn't matter. What matters is the outcome. And the outcome, as I see it, doesn't bode well for the Palestinians.
"I think that the tactics they are using to pursue it is."
They have negotiated with Isreal for 20 years while Isreal have been slowly colonising there land, 20 years ago veru few ISreali settlers lived on occupied territory today it is over 500 thousand, many political analysts beleive this was just method used to colonise their land, are these the tactics you are in favour of cause its been tried ad nauseum, or is just a complete palestian surrender with Isreal dictating what they can and cannot have either way its complete lunacy for any palestian at thise stage to consider either one of these options, you clearly dont understand what you are preaching.
"The only way, that I see, for them to have their own country is for them to recognize the state of Israel."
FATAH who leads the majority of Palestians have already done so, while Hamas has acknowledged the reality of Isreal, this recognition of another countries right to exist is a specific ploy used to keep the palestians at arms length, no country has to recognise the right of another country to exist, you just repeating undigested Isreali propaganda my friend, and i know how bad that shit tastes.
"Going to the UN is NOT going to solve the problem"
They have no other options, and please dont respond with the same shit.
"If the UN recognizes a Palestinian state and the Palestinians do not make peace with Israel,"
You have to take this statement in the context of what it entails i.e. if the UN recognises the state of Palestian based on the UN resolution voted on every year (and every year downvoted by the US and Isreal while upvoted by the rest of the world) they would be legally obliged to evict 500,000 illegal Isreali settlers.
"Whether Israel is justified in retaliating doesn't matter."
Yes it does, it matters if you want to live in the kind of society we are supposed to be part of, ive said this before, if everyone had your attittude we would fallen into a parody of George Orwells 1984 a long time ago.
"And the outcome, as I see it, doesn't bode well for the Palestinians."
And have gotten nowhere because the Palestinians are negotiating from a position of weakness and the Israelis from a position of strength.
a complete palestian surrender with Isreal dictating what they can and cannot have either way its complete lunacy for any palestian at thise stage to consider either one of these options
It's a complete lunacy for the Palestinians to refuse.
I understand that the terms the Israelis set are unacceptable to the Palestinians. I get it. I understand. But so what? They cannot stand against the might of the Israeli military. Japan and Germany were also forced to accept terms that they did not want to accept and both of those countries were a hell of a lot stronger the Palestinians have EVER been. If stronger armies than the Palestinians had to surrender, what hope do the Palestinians have of winning given their current lack of strength?
no country has to recognise the right of another country to exist
Are you saying that if the world recognizes the right for the Palestinian state to exist that Israel doesn't have to recognize them? Is this a two-way or a one-way street ;)
they would be legally obliged to evict 500,000 illegal Isreali settlers
Good luck with that ;)
it matters if you want to live in the kind of society we are supposed to be part of
I deal with the current reality, not with pipe dreams.
if everyone had your attittude we would fallen into a parody of George Orwells 1984 a long time ago.
What makes you think that we are NOT already there ;)
"And have gotten nowhere because the Palestinians are negotiating from a position of weakness and the Israelis from a position of strength."
Do you not think that is common knowledge, the problem is the Palestian (despite their weakness) are unwilling to relinquish certain things, like their own state. Now they have made extraordinary concessions over the years, you will see that if you do any serious investigation, very little (if anything) has ever been offered by the Isrealis.
"It's a complete lunacy for the Palestinians to refuse."
I don't think so, they are willing to fight no matter what, i respect that, they also know that other countries will come to there aid if they are being ethnically cleansed, the people of the middle east very sympathetic to their cause, it is one of the main factors in increasing terrorism and hatred towards the US administration.
"what? They cannot stand against the might of the Israeli military. Japan and Germany were also forced to accept terms that they did not want to accept and both of those countries were a hell of a lot stronger the Palestinians have EVER been. If stronger armies than the Palestinians had to surrender, what hope do the Palestinians have of winning given their current lack of strength"
Ive already adressed this below.
"Are you saying that if the world recognizes the right for the Palestinian state to exist that Israel doesn't have to recognize them? Is this a two-way or a one-way street ;)"
You're misunderstand what i said, you see your government is quite good are using language and Orwellian trickery, again if you ever did any serious investigating into this subject you would see how bad it is. America and Isreal have demanded Hamas (and we both no how extreme they are) acknowledge the state of Isreals right to exist, not the reality of their exist, but their right to exist, this is unheard of, no country has ever had to acknowledge anothers right to exist, think about for second, this is best kept secret stuff and you haven't heard about for a good reason e.g. when Pakistan separated from India after all the blood shed, do you think when the state of Pakistan was formed Gandhi acknowledged its right to exist. As i said this was put in place as another mechansism by which the Palestian could be blamed for not making peace with the Isrealis but hold on FATAH actually agreed, this is quite unprecendented, they actually agreed to acknowledge Isreals righ to exist, not the reality of Isreal but their right to exist, you see FATAH dont really represent Palestians best interests (they are largely in the USA pockets, this was the intention for GAZA as well but HAMAS was elected fairly and after a failed coup attempt (you americans and your coups) you and ISrela placed economic sanctions on Gaza, aanyway i digress), thats why so many of their ministers had to resign after the aplestian papers revelations, if you do take the time to investigate those papers you'll soon begin to realise that FATAH are by in large doing everything you are suggesting, seriously they are bending over backwards and taking a 15 inch dildo from Isreal but its still not enough, as i said Isreal want what no one (and i mean no one) would ever agree to.
"Good luck with that "
IM not saying its going to happen but worldwide opinion is a powerful thing my friend, the US propaganda machine has for decades been the most effective in human history at influencing opinoin, thought, instilling nationalism, and indoctrinating but the cracks are finally showing but it is still a mighty force to be reckoned with and still keeps the entire population of the US in a state of perpertually ignorant docility and passivity, this all statred in the early 1900s with the advent of PR and advertsing, with the creation of modern psychology and human thought with Sigmund Freud and Carl Young being the main innovators, they never intended for their thoeries to be used for such ends (but you know i dont need to explain), Edward Bernase (Freuds cousin) turned out to be a champion of his cousins thoeries in the application of controlling human thought he is considered to have invented PR. Now i am disgressing to an unbeleiveable extent and since i dont even kow if you'll bother to read this im goging to stop, ill leave with the following series of 4 of documentaries (in case you are interested in finding out more on the topic) from renowned film maker and thinker Adam Curtis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcYBSXgtmKQ
Now the Isreali propaganda machine for a long time succeeded in convincing much of the world (particularly the western world) that the Palestians were laregly to blame for the conflict, this is of course a complete reversal of reality for anyone who with an objective viewpiont of the conflcit but things are changing, although the ISreal propaganda machine may still be quite effective in the US and Canada, Europe and the rest of the world have largely woken up (eve if their duplicitous governments haven't) to the reality of the conflict, you may think this doesnt matter but i can gaurantee you the ramifications of this fact will come to bear on the conflict. This is already being seen in massive boycotts of Isreal produced goods, ill leave it at that you get the idea. Also, please don't respond with; "im surprised you got all that from 'Good luck with that'"
"I deal with the current reality, not with pipe dreams"
This is not a pipe dream this is the very definition of human struggle, you are a very complacent person Joe, how do you think you got the freedoms you have (or the perceived freedoms is probably more correct these days), do you think they were handed to you, no they were born out of massive struggle for individual rights and equal rights for all, whe you bend over to rapacious power you achieve nothing, you merely keep the status quo.
"What makes you think that we are NOT already there"
Because i can type what i just typed and not be arrested in my own home by the thought police and brought to the ministry of love for my for learning, understanding and acceptance.
I will admit though we are getting there, especially your own great nation.
Palestian (despite their weakness) are unwilling to relinquish certain things
Yeah..., you know, when I was younger I thought that in order to live for ever, all I had to do was to refuse to die. Now you are telling me that when dealing from a position of weakness all you have to do to win and get your way is to never concede defeat ;)
the people of the middle east very sympathetic to their cause
They are so sympathetic that all they do is pay them lip service. Tell me..., why don't they take them into their own country?
You're misunderstand what i said, you see your government is quite good are using language and Orwellian trickery
Of course I misunderstood, you are very good at using Orwellian trickery. Does Hamas advocate the destruction of the state of Israel? I'll give you a clue, check their charter ;)
the US propaganda machine
I am not basing my argument on propaganda. I just look at the facts. Palestinians are negotiating from a position of weakness. The Israelis are negotiating from a position of strength. DO YOU DENY THIS? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Palestinians cannot win.
how do you think you got the freedoms you have (or the perceived freedoms is probably more correct these days), do you think they were handed to you, no they were born out of massive struggle for individual rights and equal rights for all
We got all that by negotiating from a position of strength. We did NOT fight the British for decades.
"Yeah..., you know, when I was younger I thought that in order to live for ever, all I had to do was to refuse to die. Now you are telling me that when dealing from a position of weakness all you have to do to win and get your way is to never concede defeat ;)"
Thats not what i am saying at all, i am saying they would rather fight to the death and lsoe everything than lose their right to exist as a sovereign indepedent people with their own identity and freedom.
"They are so sympathetic that all they do is pay them lip service. Tell me..., why don't they take them into their own country? "
Actually many palestians live in neighbouring ME countries, in fact Lebanon harbours about 1.5 million palestian refugees who legally have the right of return to their former homeland, the others want to stay and fight, what do you not understand about this?
"Of course I misunderstood, you are very good at using Orwellian trickery"
If you are going to make an accusation as serious as this i think it is my right to demand evidence, i have never intentionally misreprented the truth.
"Does Hamas advocate the destruction of the state of Israel? I'll give you a clue, check their charter ;)"
I am well aware of the Hamas charter and what it advocates, i do not beleive this qualifies as Orwellian trickery, i have not selectively excluded this, i have implicitly assumed we are both aware of it, God knows anyone somewhat knowledgeable is aware of it, it is a favourite of the Isrela Propaganda machine, now im not advocating support for this charter, i think it needs to be abandoned and i think it will be. You see what you fail to realise is who has the burden of responsibility, it is the responsibility of Hamas to amend their ways and decomission their weapons, destory their charter and proclaim their devotion to peace before a settlement is agreed or it is the responsilibility of Isreal to dismantle the ilegal settlemts currently situated on palestian land before peace can be achieved?
Hamas has agreed to recognise the reality of the state of Isreal, this is something that can be buitl on, they have agreed to settle the conflict on the June 1967 borders, if they were granted what they are legally entitled to they would be forced to abandon this charter by law, why can you not understand this, the Isrealis are the ones preventing peace, not Hamas, they like to blame it on them but really using the hamas charter is quite weak when Hamas has already agreed to end the conflict, all they ask for is the return of their land, a cessation to the construction of settlements and the right of return of palestian refugees.
"Palestinians are negotiating from a position of weakness"
You perceiev it as weakness as you know they cannot win against the military might of Isreal and the US, this is true but they aren't all that weak when you consdier the fact tjhat they are willing to let themselves be destroyed in order to prevent Isreal from carrying out its genocide, they are not that weak when you consider what they have endured (especially in Gaza) yet they are willing to continue the struggle regardless of the consequences, this is not weakness, this is bravery, in fact this is the defintion of bravery, and i think if it means WW3 they are probably willing to go that far as well, the question is will Isreal let them have what they are legally entitled to, will they let them have their dignity and freedom as a people?
"The Israelis are negotiating from a position of strength. DO YOU DENY THIS? "
No, but the conclusions you draw from it are invalid when you consider what the palestians are willing to do to achieve their freedom.
"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Palestinians cannot win."
You describe this as if it were WW2 and both armies are facing off, we both know its far more complex than that, now if by WIN you mean the complete destruction of the state of Isreal then yes i agree they cannot win, if by WIN you mean the accquistion of the land they lost in 1967, and a country of their own, then no i think they can attain that goal in time.
"We got all that by negotiating from a position of strength. We did NOT fight the British for decades."
I referring to the civil rights movements of the 1960's i should have specified.
Thats not what i am saying at all, i am saying they would rather fight to the death and lsoe everything than lose their right to exist as a sovereign indepedent people with their own identity and freedom.
Then I guess it's to the death ;)
what do you not understand about this?
What I don't understand is why they haven't realized that, after decades of fighting and not getting anywhere, they should cut their loses.
it is a favourite of the Isrela Propaganda machine
Propaganda? It either is part of their charter or it isn't. There's no propaganda.
If you are going to make an accusation as serious as this i think it is my right to demand evidence, i have never intentionally misreprented the truth.
The evidence is when you say that something that was written by Hamas, on a piece of paper, in black and white, is Israeli propaganda. If that's not Orwellian trickery then I don't know what is. ;)
it is the responsibility of Hamas to amend their ways and decomission their weapons, destory their charter and proclaim their devotion to peace before a settlement is agreed or it is the responsilibility of Isreal to dismantle the ilegal settlemts currently situated on palestian land before peace can be achieved?
Since the Palestinians are in no position to negotiate from a position of strength, then it is their burden of responsibility to destroy their charter and proclaim devotion to peace before peace can be achieved.
the Isrealis are the ones preventing peace, not Hamas
Not from my point of view they are not. Since when does the vanquish get to dictate the terms of surrender? What planet are you from again ;)
they aren't all that weak when you consdier the fact tjhat they are willing to let themselves be destroyed in order to prevent Isreal from carrying out its genocide
Do you even read what you type? The Palestinians are NOT weak because they are willing to allow Israel to commit genocide on their people in order to prevent Israel from committing genocide on their people??? They are not that weak when you consider that they have gotten their ass kicked since the beginning of the conflict??? They are willing to continue the struggle regardless of the consequences, this is not weakness, this is bravery??? I think that is asinine.... but hey.... that's just me ;)
consider what the palestians are willing to do to achieve their freedom
So what you are saying is that the Palestinians are saying, "Give us liberty or give us death." Well..., that can be arranged ;)
if by WIN you mean the accquistion of the land they lost in 1967, and a country of their own
A country of their own is possible. Acquiring the land they lost in 1967.... I'm not so sure.
I referring to the civil rights movements of the 1960's i should have specified.
Oh that. Americans are a pragmatic people. The Zionists.... not so much ;)
"What I don't understand is why they haven't realized that, after decades of fighting and not getting anywhere, they should cut their loses"
Because they beleive losing their freedom, their autonomy, and identity as a people to be too great a loss, and personally i agree with that.
"Propaganda? It either is part of their charter or it isn't"
Yes, it is part of the Charter, what you fail to realise is the that Hamas have agreed to end the conflcit peacefully based on the UN resolution which requires a retreat on the part of Isreal to the Jubne 1967 borders and the right of return of Palestian refugees to the homes they were forcibly evcited from some 60 odd years ago. This is what Isreal has rejected, so you have to ask yourself if you consider yourslef a rational and objective person, who are really the ones blocking a peace settlement here? Isreal and the US or the Palestians and the rest of the world.
You may say the Palestians as they have to accept whatever the Isreal say given that they are in a powerful position but this just doesnt reflect the true nature of the conflict you know it, if the Isrealis try to eradicate the Palestians militarily first Hezzbollah, then Iran would intervenen, then the US, the rest of the middles east, then the world, so the palestians know this, therefore they know Isreal won't do it unless they are crazy enough to assure their own destruction, this is why they persevere.
"The evidence is when you say that something that was written by Hamas, on a piece of paper, in black and white, is Israeli propaganda. If that's not Orwellian trickery then I don't know what is. ;)"
You said: "Of course I misunderstood, you are very good at using Orwellian trickery. Does Hamas advocate the destruction of the state of Israel? I'll give you a clue, check their charter ;)"
Then i responded with: "I am well aware of the Hamas charter and what it advocates, i do not beleive this qualifies as Orwellian trickery, i have not selectively excluded this, i have implicitly assumed we are both aware of it, God knows anyone somewhat knowledgeable is aware of it, it is a favourite of the Isrela Propaganda machine, now im not advocating support for this charter, i think it needs to be abandoned and i think it will be. You see what you fail to realise is who has the burden of responsibility, it is the responsibility of Hamas to amend their ways and decomission their weapons, destory their charter and proclaim their devotion to peace before a settlement is agreed or it is the responsilibility of Isreal to dismantle the ilegal settlemts currently situated on palestian land before peace can be achieved?"
Now please tell me where in that paragraph i denied that the existence of the Hamas Charter or what it stipulates. If you are referring specifically to:" God knows anyone somewhat knowledgeable is aware of it, it is a favourite of the Isrela Propaganda machine," then i am sorry you took that to mean the denial of the charter. It was intended to me that the Hamas charter and many other extreme views of Hamas are used as a justifcation to excuse the actions of Isreal and their collective punishment of the palestian people. Like the Holocaust, im not denying that happened is true either, but has it been used as propaganda to justify Isreal terrorism, human rights abuses, robbery etc. etc.????? Propaganda doesn't necessarily imply false truth or mistruth i.e. "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself.As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience"
"Since the Palestinians are in no position to negotiate from a position of strength, then it is their burden of responsibility to destroy their charter and proclaim devotion to peace before peace can be achieved"
Can you not see that is exactly what Isreal wants, they have no intention of stopping settlement building, the right wing racist government in place there supports (via funding and not interupting their activities) extremist groups in building settlements that would make Hamas blush. I have already explained to you why i beleive this "strength and weakness" theory to be invalid if you don't think so fair enough.
One fact is always inescapable, namely the burden has been placed on Isreal by the International community as stipulated by International Law, there must be a complete cessation to the contruction of settlements and a return to the June 1967 borders before any peace can be finalised, Hamas has agree to this(and thus would have to abandon their charter upon its ratification by both sides), Isreal has done no such thing, and has shown strong signs that it would resist it. Now Isreal controls roughly 80% of what was formerly (and for hundreds of years) Palestian land, so the Palestians have already made their sacrifice.
"Not from my point of view they are not. Since when does the vanquish get to dictate the terms of surrender? What planet are you from again"
So the Palestians are the Vanquished in your head, i think we just stumbled upon the primary piont of contention. The Palestian people are not the Vanquished, they are arab muslims who occupy a middle east composed primarily of arab muslims, they have massive support from Iran, Hezzbullah, and Syria (or at least they did), these are just their main strategic allies, lets not forget the massive support they have in the greater middle east, and the hatred of US hegemony, if the democratisation of the ME takes place, the kind that your country has stifled for the past 40-50yrs, the Arab muslim poopulations of these countries will install governments that will be very sympathetic (to the say the least) to the Palestian cause as this is a reflection of arab public opinion, that is why Isreal and the US are so scared of the arab spring and trying so hard to prevent the goals of the people revolting from being realised.
" I think that is asinine.... but hey.... that's just me ;)"
Your rightm, it is just you, in ancient Japan weakness was to be despised, that is a warrior would fight to the death despite the odds of winning, now in relatrion to this conflict you really have to define winning, you clearly have no comprehension what this means to the Palestian people, we are talking about their survival as a people, they are unwilling to let that go, if find that asinine then all i can say is i feel sorry for you.
" Well..., that can be arranged "
Yes and everyone will pay the price, not just the palestians, how do you continually fail to see this? Do you think you are untouchable over there in the US, do you think if WW3 broke out you would come out of it unblemished? You can say what you want about the Palestian's destruction but you have to include your own in that my friend.
"A country of their own is possible."
This again demonstrates to me that you are unaware of what the Isreal are really offering.
"Oh that. Americans are a pragmatic people. The Zionists.... not so much "
Well i think calling Americans pragmatic is a bit generous but in fairness i think this is one of the few piotns i agree with almost entirely.
Because they beleive losing their freedom, their autonomy, and identity as a people to be too great a loss, and personally i agree with that.
In that case, they should continue down the current path...., where Israel keeps on building settlements and oppressing Palestinians.
if you consider yourslef a rational and objective person, who are really the ones blocking a peace settlement here?
I think that everyone is blocking a peace settlement. The Palestinians are blocking it in hopes of kicking the Jews out, the Israelis are blocking it so that they can continue building settlements, The U.S. is blocking it in order to have a strategic military presence, the Arabs are blocking it in order to keep their people united, pretty much everyone is blocking it.
this is why they persevere.
You call their current way of life persevering?!?!? Wow!!! I mean...., WOW!
Now please tell me where in that paragraph i denied that the existence of the Hamas Charter or what it stipulates.
That is NOT what I'm talking about. Hamas has a charter that states that it aims to destroy the state of Israel and you use your Orwellian trickery to suggest that Israel should just ignore that and if it doesn't, then Israel is guilty of propaganda. Israel doesn't have to twist the facts. All it has to do is present the facts. And the facts are that Hamas aims to destroy the state of Israel.
Can you not see that is exactly what Isreal wants
Can I NOT see that Israel does NOT want Hamas to destroy them? Yeah, I see that. Why is that a bad thing? Should Israel be happy that Hamas wants to destroy them?
One fact is always inescapable, namely the burden has been placed on Isreal by the International community as stipulated by International Law, there must be a complete cessation to the contruction of settlements and a return to the June 1967 borders before any peace can be finalised
Yeah, and? Israel wants Hamas' charter to be destroyed before any peace can be finalized and Hamas wants the settlements to stop before the any peace can be finalized. Now what? The International community has passed some stipulation. So? What has Israel done? What has the International community done? What recourse is there now through this International Law? The International Community can stipulate all they want and proclaim it to be International Law. It doesn't change a damn thing.
You keep on crying, "Israel is not playing by the rules, whaaaa!" Grow up! As long as there are no consequences to Israel's actions, Israel is going to do whatever it wants. As long as the International Community does not force Israel to obey them, Israel is not going to obey them. All the International Community is doing is paying lip service to the Palestinians and the Palestinians keep on paying for this lip service with their blood and their future and their children. And that, my friend, is the sad honest truth and the reality that we have to deal with.
The Palestian people are not the Vanquished, they are arab muslims who occupy a middle east composed primarily of arab muslims, they have massive support from Iran, Hezzbullah, and Syria
Massive support? You call the last 60 years massive support? I would argue that Israel has massive support and that it is this massive support that has allowed Israel to oppress the Palestinians for the last 60 years. This "massive support," as you call it, is what I call "Lip Service."
if the democratisation of the ME takes place, the kind that your country has stifled for the past 40-50yrs, the Arab muslim poopulations of these countries will install governments that will be very sympathetic (to the say the least) to the Palestian cause as this is a reflection of arab public opinion,
You really overestimate human nature. ;)
Let us wait and see what happens with this Arab Spring. BTW, don't you guys have Irish Spring? Oh yeah..., that's a soap ;)
you really have to define winning
In this situation, I define winning as 2 states, the state of Israel and the Palestinian state, living side by side in harmony. That's how I define winning.
Do you think you are untouchable over there in the US, do you think if WW3 broke out you would come out of it unblemished?
"In that case, they should continue down the current path...., where Israel keeps on building settlements and oppressing Palestinians."
Unfortunately i beleive this will continue until such at time as sheer people power changes th situation, i try to have faith in the goodness of humanity but im finding it harder and harder to come by.
"I think that everyone is blocking a peace settlement"
No, no you have this all wrong, i have clearly stated to you the US and Isreal (and australia joined their side a few years back) have for 20 yrs been blocking a UN resolution that would bring the conflict to a peaceful end, all Palestian representatives have signed up for this, the enmtire world has voted on it, the Islamic Republic of Iran has backed it, the arab league has backed it, the US and Isreal block it. Simple as that, theres a very good reason its existence and the voting is best kept secret in the US because im sure the many moral individuals in your country (and i feel i must say that at heart the majority of americans are moral and decent they have just been fed with worthless foam from the mouth (to quote Bob Dylan)) would abide by and force Sireal to relequish the land they stole in 1967.
"pretty much everyone is blocking it"
You see you have to invent this lie in order to rationalise it to yourself, can you not even concieve of the possibility that mayeb just maybe the US and Isreal are the only ones blocking it, i have provided you with the evidence and its quite irrefutable, heres the link see for yourself: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/7EB10BD6D4BCACCF85257829005379D9
hers a concise explanation:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ_v5fwW9fE
"state of Israel and you use your Orwellian trickery to suggest that Israel should just ignore that and if it doesn't, then Israel is guilty of propaganda"
But i have told you Hamas has signed up to the UN resolution, if they were to retain their charter after Isreal granted their legal entitlement they would be in breach and im sure the Worlds authority would have no trouble coming down on top of them like a tonne of bricks, they dont have anm ally like the US.
"Israel doesn't have to twist the facts. All it has to do is present the facts"
This is the direct antithesis of the true of the Isrelais propaganda machine, they have used the most slimy and duplicitious methods in ensuring the truth doesn't get out and for a long time they succeeded as they haev the support of almost the entire Western media, the amount of examples i could provide, but i doubt they would do anything to change your mind.
"Can I NOT see that Israel does NOT want Hamas to destroy them? Yeah, I see that"
We both know Hamas has about as much chance of destroying Isreal as the ant i step on has of destroying my foot.
"Should Israel be happy that Hamas wants to destroy them?"
You really dont have anything else to cling to do you, i mean does the fact that Hamas have signed up to teh UN resolution and thus intent to renownce violence against the state of ISreal mean nothing to you or are you just incapable of admitting your backing the wrong horse here (from a moral perspective).
"Yeah, and? Israel wants Hamas' charter to be destroyed before any peace can be finalized and Hamas wants the settlements to stop before the any peace can be finalized. Now what? The International community has passed some stipulation. So? What has Israel done? What has the International community done? What recourse is there now through this International Law? The International Community can stipulate all they want and proclaim it to be International Law. It doesn't change a damn thing."
Im not even going to bother.
""Israel is not playing by the rules, whaaaa!" Grow up"
You really don't seem to capable of realising that not playing by the rules has fairly massive consequences, you think your country is untouchable and can do what it likes all over the world but im telling you if war breaks out and i mean a real world war then you will be just as vunerable as anyone else, you say to me to grow up, i have grown up, i know the consequences of doing what you are doing and they a re grave. YOU NEED TO SERIOUS ANALYSE YOUR OPINIONS AND DONT LISTEN TO A WORD OF AMERICAN NEWS, THE IGNORANCE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE COULD VERY WELL DESTROY THIS WORLD OF OURS -this is true of the environment and war,( pakistan is another melting pot and they have plenty of Nukes that you granted them.)
"And that, my friend, is the sad honest truth and the reality that we have to deal with."
Im not saying your wrong i just think the Palestian resolve is stong and the seeds of hatred have been sowed, they aren't just going to fade way into history, ISreal will have to eal with them one way or the other and what ISreal does will have a massive impact on exactly what does happen.
"This "massive support," as you call it, is what I call "Lip Service."
You will see exactly what this lip service really mean if ISreal decides to massacre the Palestians, you really will.
"You really overestimate human nature"
How? You don't seem to understand how inflamed tempers are within the muslim population, you can't inavde afghanistan and Iraq and murder 1.2 million people in the process without pissing people off, the Palestian question is the key to peace or war, read Jimmy Carters book "Peace not Aparthied", you need to understnad that this fits perfecetly into human nature, and human evolution, when the existence of a distinct group of people are threatened by another they will band together and fight for their survival, you underestimate this effect, and you underestimate the hatred for Isreal and the US.
"In this situation, I define winning as 2 states, the state of Israel and the Palestinian state, living side by side in harmony. That's how I define winning."
Yes thats how the Palestians and the rest of the world define it as well, the US and Isreal dont define that way im afriad despite what yopu may think, look into the palestinian papers and you will see that what the ISrealis want is not for something that can be called a palestian state, simple as that.
does the fact that Hamas have signed up to teh UN resolution and thus intent to renownce violence against the state of ISreal mean nothing to you
It means nothing to me. I don't trust them.
if war breaks out and i mean a real world war then you will be just as vunerable as anyone else
I'll take my chances. I think there are way too many people on the planet any way. ;)
i just think the Palestian resolve is stong and the seeds of hatred have been sowed, they aren't just going to fade way into history
I think the Israeli resolve is stronger and the seeds of hatred have been sowed, they aren't just going to fade way into history. ;)
read Jimmy Carters book "Peace not Aparthied"
OMG! That idiot? Ha! ;)
when the existence of a distinct group of people (Jews) are threatened by another (Hamas) they will band together and fight for their survival. Don't you see that? ;)
Yes thats how the Palestians and the rest of the world define it
Trust really doesn't matter, the fact is even if your assertion is correct that they will continue to try to destroy Isreal (if that is what you mean) then ISreal will have international law and the rest of the world to back them up, the fact is Hamas was an organisation that rose to prominance based on the opppression of the palestians, if they were granted a real state of their own i have no doubt Hamas would either be replaced or become a mcuh more benign group, that process if already partly underway with the Hamas-Fatah negotiations.But hey if you wanna think otherwise then theres clearly nothing i can say to change your mind.
"I'll take my chances. I think there are way too many people on the planet any way"
I really don't think you understand what WW3 means for the human race, the ones that survive will wish they hadn't.
"I think the Israeli resolve is stronger "
Really is that why they've lost to Hizzbollah the last two time they fought them, without their advanced amry Isreal would never have lasted, palestians, lebonese and others grow up in a much more unforgiving environment, they are as hard as nails my friend.
"OMG! That idiot"
Ya that idiot.
"when the existence of a distinct group of people (Jews)"88
You really beleive the existence of Isreal is threatened by Hamas, you clealry have no idea what occured in Gaza in 2009 do you?
" Don't you see that"
"I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.
I think I can make it now, the pain is gone
All of the bad feelings have disappeared
Here is the rainbow I’ve been prayin?for
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.
Look all around, there’s nothin?but blue skies
Look straight ahead, nothin?but blue skies
I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day."
"Yeah, I don't believe that."
So what you are in effect saying is you don't beleive what im saying despite the fact that i have provided you with incontrovertible proof that what i am saying is true, you still want to hold onto your lie and not examine the material? Wow.
if they were granted a real state of their own i have no doubt Hamas would either be replaced or become a mcuh more benign group
And if Hamas were to reject their charter I have no doubt Israel would stop building settlements. But hey if you wanna think otherwise then there's clearly nothing I can say to change your mind. ;)
I really don't think you understand what WW3 means for the human race, the ones that survive will wish they hadn't.
Good! Maybe they'll think twice next time about holding a grudge for 60 years ;)
palestians, lebonese and others grow up in a much more unforgiving environment, they are as hard as nails my friend.
Maybe..., but they can't shoot straight ;)
You really beleive the existence of Isreal is threatened by Hamas
Didn't you just say they were tough as nails? Which one is it? I think you change your rhetoric based on convenience ;)
So what you are in effect saying is you don't beleive what im saying despite the fact that i have provided you with incontrovertible proof that what i am saying is true, you still want to hold onto your lie and not examine the material?
No, I'm saying that I don't believe that Hamas is as nice as you make them out to be ;)
My mama what?
Forget it. I guess it loses something in the translation ;)
"And if Hamas were to reject their charter I have no doubt Israel would stop building settlements"
Based on what Joe, gut feeling is it, a gut feeling that Isreal is really a force for good is it?
"But hey if you wanna think otherwise then there's clearly nothing I can say to change your mind. ;)"
Im a rationalist ill beleive what the record shows and what the evidence says, Isreal has made no bones about what they plan to do, they will not allow a palestian state, at least nothing that could be called a state, hey heres a crazy idea instead of relying on gut feelings how about you read the PALESTIAN PAPERS, you know those documented transcripts of the entire process of negotiations that went on between the state of Isreal and the palestian leadership in the west bank, ive said this to you many times but it has never rung more true than right now, YOU LOVE YOUR IGNORANCE
"Good! Maybe they'll think twice next time about holding a grudge for 60 years"
Well every cloud has a silver linning
"Maybe..., but they can't shoot straight "
The lebonese have defeated Isreal twice using mere rockets and mortars in the face of tankis and apache helicopters, thats what i call a strong fucking resolve, look it if you doubt me, the vietcong did it to you, were taking about hard fucking people who are fighting for their very survival here, you can't seem to grasp that.
"Didn't you just say they were tough as nails? Which one is it?"
Hamas just have the necessary weapons (you know due to the blockade, and please dont tell me that provides justifcation cause it seriously fucking doesnt and im not even going to get into why), but yes they are tough as nails, Hizzbullah though, they are one to watch out for my friend, Isreal has already lost against them twice and i have no doubt it is chomping and the bit to get back at them in order to restore its pride.
"I think you change your rhetoric based on convenience "
I think you are wrong, i think you are trying to find any means you can to discredit what i am saying because you simply don't like hearing the truth, so can Hamas not be tough as nails and not threaten Isreal at the same time, yes of course it can, the problem is no matter how tough yopu are when faced with the most advanced mitlitary hardware in the world and all you have is a pee shooter and some pride, you ain't likely to win, Hizzbollah on the other hand have been funded miltarily by Iran, and even though there weapons aren't a patch on Isreals they more than make up for it with their strength, resolve, ingenuity etc. etc. Just like the vietcong.
"No, I'm saying that I don't believe that Hamas is as nice as you make them out to be"
I never said they were nice, i beleive them to be made up of crazy extremists, i respect them but i dont like them, im saying they have signed up to a peaceful settlement based on international law, Isreal hasn't
"Forget it. I guess it loses something in the translation "
No i know exactly what you saying i just wanted to confuse you
Based on what Joe, gut feeling is it, a gut feeling that Isreal is really a force for good is it?
Based on the same bull shit you base Hamas as being a force for good.
Im a rationalist
Really? You could have fooled me ;)
Hamas has made no bones about what they plan to do, destroy the state of Israel.
but yes they are tough as nails, Hizzbullah though, they are one to watch out for
Bring it ;)
i think you are trying to find any means you can to discredit what i am saying because you simply don't like hearing the truth
Actually...., I do it because I have nothing better to do ;)
no matter how tough yopu are when faced with the most advanced mitlitary hardware in the world and all you have is a pee shooter and some pride, you ain't likely to win
So what's the point of claiming they are as tough as nails if in the same breath you are going to concede that they ain't likely gonna win?
"Based on the same bull shit you base Hamas as being a force for good."
Please show me exactly where i refreed to or insinuated that Hamas are a force for good, they have their own agenda but they are not the ones currently blocking a peace settlement you seem incapable of acknowledging the true reality of the situation. The Palestians want their own state, they are entitled to their own state, please man your clutching at straws here.
"Really? You could have fooled me"
Well im in favour of examining the facts, looking at the real history of whats going on, you seem to want to just beleive the delicious propaganda that assured you your opinions were correct and that you were on the moral side in this, IM HERE TO TELL YOU THAT YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG IF YOU TRIED.
"Hamas has made no bones about what they plan to do, destroy the state of Israel."
How many times do i have to say it, they have agreed to end the conflict peacefully based on the 1967 borders and the UN resolution.
"Bring it "
What?
"Actually...., I do it because I have nothing better to do "
Well obviously, that to.
"So what's the point of claiming they are as tough as nails if in the same breath you are going to concede that they ain't likely gonna win"
Because if they were armed appropriately i beleive they would be a force to be reckoned with, like Hezzbullah. Why are focusing on Hamas?
"So if they are NOT a force for good, then why should anyone trust them when they say that "
Because no force is a force for "good", you are clearly living with the false western interpretation of good and evil, this is a result of your unending exposure to corrupt Western (mainly american) ideology. The fact is good and evil are the same thing, yin and yang, this isnt mumbo jumbo, this is how it is, within us there is evil and good, and they are expressed collectively through our actions, is the state of Isreal evil, NO, is it an extremist state, YES i beleive it is rapidly becoming one. Are Hamas a force for good, in their current form probably not but they exist to defend themselves and their people, this means they cannot be a force for good, the IRA were not considered a force for good when they were ambushing Britishing soldiers and shooting them dead while they went to the Market with their families on a Sunday, but with hindsight we can say they were justified, as they had no other option, also as a side note Michael Colins pretty much invented modern guerilla warfare.Things must be black and white for you, like most americans, there has to be the bad guys and the good guys as that is the diet you have been raised on, well the word doesnt work that way no matter how much you want it to.
"You talk in circles."
I think if you trudge your way back through our posts you'll find that you repeatedly used the same justifcation's to maintain your views just packaged differently despite my insistance that you actually refer to some unquestionable sources, i simply provided the same replies, you know i figured if i said it enough maybe it wouuld fucking sink in.
No they fuckin don't, these things have been discussed at length, the palestians are well aware of what the Isreal want to see happen, that is precisely why an agreement has never been reached, look when you make such unsubstantiated and outlandish remarks why not providing a source, cause really fron where im sitting your just blowing biased hot air.
The Palestinians do assume that changing their tactics will not work, otherwise they would change their tactics. Especially since their old tactic has NOT worked.
I understand that the terms the Israelis set are unacceptable to the Palestinians. I get it. I understand. But so what? They cannot stand against the might of the Israeli military. Japan and Germany were also forced to accept terms that they did not want to accept and both of those countries were a hell of a lot stronger the Palestinians have EVER been. If stronger armies than the Palestinians had to surrender, what hope do the Palestinians have of winning given their current lack of strength?
Palestinians are in denial if they think that they can turn the clock back to 1967. They would first have to destroy Israel. And I don't see that happening any time soon. Their only other option is to change tactics. Think outside the box. Try going around, over or under the obstacle and stop trying to go through it.
Israel is an immoveable object. Palestinians are NOT an unstoppable force. They can become an unstoppable force but they have to establish a country first. In order to establish a country, they will have to take a few steps back and accept the unacceptable terms. Then they can do what Germany did in WWII, violate the unacceptable terms once they are strong enough.
You should only wage war from a position of strength. Currently the Palestinians are trying to negotiate from a position of weakness.
The recommendations I make have been proven to work. The Palestinians have not tried to implement it. They assume it will not work.
"n order to establish a country, they will have to take a few steps back and accept the unacceptable terms. Then they can do what Germany did in WWII, violate the unacceptable terms once they are strong enough. "
Do you really think if they settled based on the terms of the ISrealis and subsequently tried to build up some kind of a military force to fight them that Isreal would 1) not notice, and 2) not completely destroy them for it.
"You should only wage war from a position of strength."
Someones been reading the art of war, yes i agree, they are currently waging war from the strngest postion they can and im sorry to tell you your idea would not work, you have to understand how limited the so called "palestian state" Isreal is offering is before you realise that suggestion is false.
"The recommendations I make have been proven to work."
Joe you clearly dont see the conflict in the same light as many people, i don't want to sound arrogant but i quote the example of the 1916 easter rising, this was a completely symbolic rebellion where some of the greatest Irish men of the day made a blood sacrifice in order to gather the inertia necessary to force to British empire to leave Ireland, they knew (just as im sure the palestian people know) their efforts are meant only to perpetuate their struggle. The world is a changeable place (as demonstrated perfectly by the arab spring) and the fire of revolution if extinguished is very difficult to relight. To quote Bob Dylan "the loser now will be later to win", the plight of the palestian people has not been ignored by the rest of the world (particularly the muslim world), the source of all that terrorism your coutnry hates so much is largely fuelled by it. As i stated the arab spring may do alot to change the politics of the region.
"How does anyone know that if they haven't tried?"
Because the Isrealis have outlined in enough detail what they will and will not let the Palestian people have and i can assure you they consider it to be worse, and you would to if you were in their position, but please dont take my word for it, ive provided you with ample links for you to begin to find out for yourself.
"That's because their leaders don't offer any hope, nor real leadership."
They have no hope to offer, this doesnt prove any of your pionts.
ive provided you with ample links for you to begin to find out for yourself.
All that you have provided is that the terms the Israelis set are unacceptable to the Palestinians. So what? They cannot stand against the might of the Israeli military. Japan and Germany were also forced to accept terms that they did not want to accept and both of those countries were a hell of a lot stronger the Palestinians have EVER been. If stronger armies than the Palestinians had to surrender, what hope do the Palestinians have of winning given their current lack of strength?
"All that you have provided is that the terms the Israelis set are unacceptable to the Palestinians"
I provided you with a link to the Palestian papers which outlines clearly what the Isrealis want, now if you take the time to read the official transcripts our the Al Jazeera summaries you will soon begin to realise these are terms that noone would agree to, and will you please stop using WW2 and Japan and Germany to back up your aegument, these situations are so incomparable i don't even want to get into it.
"They cannot stand against the might of the Israeli military."
On there own no they can't but Isreal could never have stood up against Egypt and Syria had it not been for the US, i think the Plaestian sense that the political tide is changing, if the arab spring may be their saving grace.
"Japan and Germany were also forced to accept terms that they did not want to accept"
Ok, look Japan and Germany were both trying to cultivate imperial empires in WW2, the Palestian are merely trying to recapture 20% (their legal entitlement) of the land they once owned, i.e. prior to the setting up of the state of Isreal. Also, the Palestian have many friends worldwide (especially the middle east) therefore if ISreal tries to completely annihilate them world war three will ensue, i can say that without any hesitation, so the situations are in no way comparable, also Germany and Japan were only forced to return to their previous borders, this is all im going to say in relation to this subject as far as im concerned its a ridiculous argument.
"what hope do the Palestinians have of winning given their current lack of strength"
A compromise will have to b ereached at some stage but no so long as the Isrealis are demanding complete and total domination of Palestian sovereignty and all that entails.
and will you please stop using WW2 and Japan and Germany to back up your aegument, these situations are so incomparable i don't even want to get into it.
Just because YOU say that they are incompatible doesn't make it so. Prove that they are incompatible.
i think the Plaestian sense that the political tide is changing, if the arab spring may be their saving grace.
Good. Let's wait and see ;)
if ISreal tries to completely annihilate them world war three will ensue
That is the only thing you have said that I agree with.
"Just because YOU say that they are incompatible doesn't make it so. Prove that they are incompatible."
I never said they were incompatible, that implies that they cannot be compared in anyway, i said "incomparable" which implies they are not suitable for comparison, of course there are similarities between the two, for one thing they were both wars, that one thing they have in common, and im sure there's plenty more but thats not the piont, you continue to use this (Japan and Germany surrendering and their sunsequent economic success) as a reason for the palestians to surrender, this i take issue with on a moral,, ethical, legal, and rational basis.
You think you can just apply the same logic to the Isreal Palestine conflict, firstly how you can even serious think this i do not know, secondly i already responded to this i.e. "Ok, look Japan and Germany were both trying to cultivate imperial empires in WW2, the Palestian are merely trying to recapture 20% (their legal entitlement) of the land they once owned, i.e. prior to the setting up of the state of Isreal. Also, the Palestians have many friends worldwide (especially in the predominantly muslim middle east) therefore if ISreal tries to completely annihilate them world war three will ensue, i can say that without any hesitation, so the situations are in no way comparable, also Germany and Japan were only forced to return to their previous borders, this is all im going to say in relation to this subject as far as im concerned its a ridiculous argument"
Now if this doesnt convince you i dont what will, can you not see that the palestians for one thing know they have leverage of a sort, it may mean their destruction but they will most likely destroy Isreal in the process, also they are demanding what they are legally entitled to, this is some army thats been trying to steal Isreals land and resources and has been beaten and now must accept the conditions of their surrender this is there homeland, and is was for hundreds of years when no state of Isreal existed, they are being eradicated, Isreal wants them gone, and all you can say is "they should surrender" get you head out of your ass man. And Japan and Germany were granted their previous territory, Japanese are a very prous people and so are Germans, do you really think they would have surrendered (especially the Japanese their generals wanted to the entire country to die, the emperor had to intervene) if they had to relequish all their land, and effeectively submit to a foreign power and lose their identity in the process, i strongly doubt it!!!!!!!!!
"That is the only thing you have said that I agree with."
Yes so can you not see how this could act as the palestian deterance capacity.
can you not see that the palestians for one thing know they have leverage of a sort
No. I don't see that at all. If they had any leverage, they would have made some progress since the beginning.
they will most likely destroy Isreal in the process
I seriously doubt that.
they are demanding what they are legally entitled to
No one is entitled to anything. You take what you can get away with. That is what Israel is doing.
*this is some army thats been trying to steal Isreals land and resources and has been beaten and now must accept the conditions of their surrender
That's right. The Palestinians must now accept the conditions of their surrender or..... for every Israeli death, 2 or more Palestinians will die. At least that is how it has been for decades. If they think that's a good trade, then have at it.
this is there homeland
And before that it was Jewish land.
they are being eradicated
They can prevent that by not waging war against Israel.
Isreal wants them gone
This is NOT in the Israeli charter but the destruction of the state of Israel IS in Hama's charter. Maybe you're getting it mixed up ;)
all you can say is "they should surrender"
When you get your ass kicked and there's no hope of winning, then yes, you should surrender. There's this phrase, you may have heard of it, it's states that, "There comes a point in time when you should just cut your loses."
if they had to relequish all their land, and effeectively submit to a foreign power and lose their identity in the process, i strongly doubt it!
Really? I mean...., really? Wow!
Yes so can you not see how this could act as the palestian deterance capacity.
No. Because the Palestinians do not have the bomb, Israel does. Now that is a real deterrent ;)
"If they had any leverage, they would have made some progress since the beginning"
This argumnet can be turned around on you as follows; If Isreal had the leverage you claim they have they would have forced the Palestians to do whatever they wanted along time ago.
"I seriously doubt that"
Really, you dont think the state of Isreal could be swiftly destroyed, one large bomb hitting Tel Aviv would cripple them, ask any military analyst, you dont think this is possible?
" At least that is how it has been for decades. If they think that's a good trade, then have at it."
This characterisation is at odds with the reality of the conflict, ive tried to explain why but you clearly don't agree.
"And before that it was Jewish land."
Are you fucking serious? No really, are you fucking serious? Do you how long ago it was the Jewish homeland i.e. " According to Biblical evidence the first Kingdom of Israel was established around the 11th century BCESubsequent Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently over the next thousand years."Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Jewish_History_in_Israel_and_the_ Palestinian_Territories
This means Isreal, the original Jewish state of was formed roughly 3000 years ago and was dismantled roughly 2000 years ago, now you really mean to tell me they had a claim over this land even though the Palestians occupied it for hundreds of years?
Let me give you a very good example of why this is complete horseshit, it is one that is quite close to home for me, namely Northern Ireland, the Protestant people of the North (who make up about 55-60% of the populations) had lived there for roughly 500 years since the successful plantations proceeding the demise of the last great Celtic chief Hugh O Neil Long digression about to start here who commanded the greatest and most feared army in Europe at the time but made a fatal error, anyway i wont go into Irish history even though i know it like the back of me hand as i read it thoroughly from old Irish books when i was very young, the kinds of books written by the Irish revivalists of the late 1800s and early 1900s, the kind that showed the true history of Ireland, warts and all, and not the sanatised history presented to kids today to disparage ill feeling towards the British digression over The piont is when Ireland became a free state in 1921 (just prior to the civil war) the primary reason they were given for not beign granted the six countries of Ulster was that the protestant people were entitled to remain under the British Crown, this been the case right upto the present day, thorugh all the troubles stemming from the mistreatment of catholics in the North.
Now by your logic, we have the right to tell them to fuck off cause we once controlled the land they occupy, do i understand you correctly? Or do you beleive in the religious hocom pokom that states that they have a divine right to inhabit the land.
"Because the Palestinians do not have the bomb, Israel does. Now that is a real deterrent"
Any strike against the Palestian will be viewd as a strike on the whole muslim world, and things are already fairly fucking volatile.
This argumnet can be turned around on you as follows; If Isreal had the leverage you claim they have they would have forced the Palestians to do whatever they wanted along time ago.
They have. Think about it for a second. If Israel wants to build a settlement, they build a settlement. If Israel wants to bomb them, they bomb them. Israel does what it wants because the Palestinian people threaten to wipe Israel off the map. I propose that the Palestinian people take away Israel's excuse by conceding the right of the state of Israel to exist.
This characterisation is at odds with the reality of the conflict, ive tried to explain why but you clearly don't agree.
What characterization? Are you saying that Israel has not had the upper hand for decades? What reality are you talking about?
Do you how long ago it was the Jewish homeland
Oh..., I'm sorry. Is there a statute of limitation? ;)
Now by your logic, we have the right to tell them to fuck off cause we once controlled the land they occupy
No, they have the right to tell them to fuck off because they are stronger.
Any strike against the Palestian will be viewd as a strike on the whole muslim world, and things are already fairly fucking volatile
That's OK, Israel has plenty of nukes to deal with them ;)
"They have. Think about it for a second. If Israel wants to build a settlement, they build a settlement. If Israel wants to bomb them, they bomb them."
This isn't quite true to the extent you are using it but i will conceed you have a piont.
" Israel does what it wants because the Palestinian people threaten to wipe Israel off the map"
Isreal does what it wants regardless of the Hamas Charter, if this was abolished they would find another reason.
"What characterization? Are you saying that Israel has not had the upper hand for decades? What reality are you talking about?"
I feel like i have to continually again explain myself, ok one last time, Isreal cannot wipe out the Palestians, they may try using all the underhanded methods they want but we both know those four million people aren't just going to disappear, and if Isreal tries to make them disappear it will likely lead to WW3, therefore when you characterise the conflict , therefore although i agree Isreal has the upper they cannot simply do as they please, not even just because of the danger of war, to be honest the state of Isreal has become so extreem i doubt that deters all that much anyway, but the world is watching what they do, but they do not hold all the cards as you continually suggest ans use as an excuse for a palestian surrender.
"Oh..., I'm sorry. Is there a statute of limitation"
Well yes that was kind of the fucking piont of using Northern Ireland as a example, have you ever heard of squators rights? I mean how long does somebody have to live on land in your mind in roder to call it their own? Isnt 2000 years long enough to say, well, i don't think they have title to that land anymore, look the bottom line that you keep overlooking is the rule of law, you either beleive in it or you don't, if you don't then much of what you say is correct but i warn you these laws were formulated for very good fucking reasons (i.e. WW2 and mutually assured destruction) and if you are not going to stand up for them then i hope you are in the minority cause if people with your views are in the majority i think the future is very bleak indeed
"No, they have the right to tell them to fuck off because they are stronger."
Again by law they don't if you want to return to the time when might was right you better be sure all the nukes and chem. and bio weapons have been decommissioned and the means to rebuild them destroyed cause its going to get ugly.
"That's OK, Israel has plenty of nukes to deal with them "
Ya, and Pakistan (who are already at bioling piotn over US drone attacks and imperialism, i created a debate on this that nobody wanted to comment on) have plenty for ISreal, and by the time we get to tht stage Russia and China will most likely be aiming their squarely on your beloved homeland my friend and between them they have enough land and nukes to make sure nobody comes out of it smiling, USE YOUR HEAD
Isreal cannot wipe out the Palestians, they may try using all the underhanded methods they want but we both know those four million people aren't just going to disappear
They don't have to. They already do pretty much what they want.
Well yes that was kind of the fucking piont of using Northern Ireland as a example, have you ever heard of squators rights?
Cool! So I guess the Palestinians better hurry if they want any of that land back because those Israeli squaters are racking up some statute of limitations. Or is this another one of those one way streets? :-)
"They don't have to. They already do pretty much what they want"
You seem to be incapable of beleiving that this will end, or can end, this is arrogance on your part my friend, like your american empire, that will end to, maybe not in your lifetime but it will end, in the history of man all empires end most of the time in dramatic fashion.
"Cool! So I guess the Palestinians better hurry if they want any of that land back because those Israeli squaters are racking up some statute of limitations. Or is this another one of those one way streets"
Well the overwhelming majority of them have been living there since roughly 1993, and the palestians have the law on their side, laws that didnt exist 100 yrs ago.
Ya he was really good, 70 years old and still going, i mean his voice is largely gone but hes still able to pull off some good numbers, definitely still worth, plus Bobs music was never realy aboput the melody anyway its all about the insightful and thought provoking lyrics. Admittedly the concert is a bit of a blur, wen to packed pub afterwards after meeting up with two guy from Dublin and madness ensued.
This is an incredibly stupid question, its like saying; why isnt China allowed to invade the rest of asia and setup a new asiatic empire?
Who says that China is NOT allowed to invade the rest of Asia and setup a new Asiatic Empire? If China wanted to do such a thing because it saw some benefit in it and it was willing to pay the price and it had the power to do it, it would do it.
Are American Indians entitled to the lands currently owned by the U.S.? Are they actively trying to acquire said land? Is anyone in the world helping them out? Is the UN voting on resolutions to restore the land back to them?
Where is this world you speak of where people get their grievances resolved by a world council of united nations and everyone abides by their resolution and everyone goes home all happy and shit and economic (money) and military power plays no role in the outcome ;)
hey Joe did you read your own article i.e."At his recent pep rally in Washington, Netanyahu received a hero's welcome from AIPAC and a gushing display of congressional fealty from a roomful of people who heard what they came for but left none the wiser. He characterized the Palestinian economy as "booming," thanks to Israel's "help." It is unclear if this was meant to mock the millions in the Gaza Strip who live in abject poverty with their homes and infrastructure, airport and seaport still shattered from the last Israeli onslaught. And while Netanyahu demands we accept the Jewish state as a precondition for talks, Israel accepts no preconditions itself, especially not with regard to its illegal and universally-condemned settlements. In fact, Zionism has never had any intentions of allowing a Palestinian state—not in 1948, not in 1967, not at Oslo, not at Camp David, and not now."
Cool! So there doesn't seem to be any way to achieve peace. War is the only option. Let's do it. Even if no one is left standing at the end, we would at least put all this bull shit behind us ;)
There is another option, respect the rule of law, give the palestians what they are entitled to and end the conflcit peacefully, this would go along way to preventing islamic extremism and preventing a possible WW3, then we'd just have global warming, the energy crisis, the economic crisis to deal, the environmental crisis, the poverty crisis etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum, good luck humanity.
Think about what started the conflict. The Arabs wanted the Jews out. They still want the Jews out. And you want me to believe that if we give the Arabs a toe hold that they will say, "OK, we'll change our charter and leave you alone. We don't want you out any more." What kind of fantasy world do you live in?
I have to beleive that, i have to beleive that the people of the conflcit are capable of living peacefully if they are given what they entitled to and the rights they deserve.
Now this isn't what could happen this is about who has been right and who has been wrong and i can tell you Isreal have been for a long time and are still in the wrong morallyand legally, this isn''t up for debate, God knows ive done enough at this stage to prove it, go do some readin if you don't think so.
"What kind of fantasy world do you live in?"
I have to beleive humanity is capable of lving together.
To paraphrase a very amazing man "there is no heaven, there is no hell, and there isno purgatory, all there is is this, the ever present, and you can make hell of it, you can make heaven of it and you can make purgatory of it" So accepting your piont of view isnt an option for me, not as long as i beleive other things are possible.
I have to remind you it was you who orginally referred to post as containing "blatantly stupid shit" to which i justifiably took alot of offense to and which you subsequently proceeded to tell me why in the form of four posts, so please don't engage in my debates if you don't want your mind to be changed.
If you do support Isreal in this conflict you should be aware of just how unjustifiable that position is.
You only see two sides Isreal and Hamas, this is very narrow minded way of looking at things it completely neglects the palestian people, the provisional IRA was formed due to justifiable greivances and the suffering of the northern irish catholics, an organisation as extreme as Hamas was formed for the exact same reasons.
Joe you are right. This is not about land this is about religion and the hatred between religions....in this case the Jews and the Arabs. This issue is old and one that will never be resolved.
We have no right as Americans to tell Israel what they can or can't do. Hopefully they will use the resources to protect themselves.
This is a conflict that will never go away. People do not understand this and think it is only an issue over land. This is more complicated than that. This is a religious war, has been and always will be. This is about Abraham, Sarah, Hagar and their children.
The Jews could give away half the land they are on and that would never be enough for the arabs...they want it all and won't stop until the Jews are all dead. This is commandment from Allah. Palestinian goal is the establishment of the Khilafah which is an Islamic state where the ONE RELIGION, is supreme and controls everything...both government and society. Do you think the Palstinians care that Jerusalem as a city is a religious symbol for Judaism and Christianity?
Israel is at war with Islam and yet they treat them and include them in everything. This I just don't get. They even allow arabs into the Israeli parliament. How many Jews serve in the government of the surrounding arab countries? It is only terrorists that Israel targets, and since terrorists love using human shields, civilians often get hit inadvertantly. The only difference is, Israelis specifically target terrorists and its infrastructure, the Palestinian terrorists specifically target civilians. They simply hate the Jews so much that they dont care who gets killed, even their own people.
We have no right as Americans to tell Israel what they can or can't do.
Yet, we have a right to tell Palestinians? Our unflinching support of Israel I think is part of the problem. The United States has supported Israel for largely religious reasons, it's not right.
Are you going to look in the eyes of parents who have lost a son in this war and tell them that what their son did...protecting and freeing innocent Muslims from the hands of their own dictators was wrong. Nothing America does is good in the larger scheme of things.....eh?
No we have no right to tell them either actually....
Did we have the right to jump in the war to end Hitlers rampage? Should we left weaker countries stand up to tyranny?
Israel is the only DEMOCRATIC....country in the ME. That we should always stand up for. And since 9-11 America has learned a lot about Islam and why it acts the way it does. We are told it is only the minority of Islam a few token radicals ( I read somewhere 1%) who want us dead (Jews, Christians) ...well if that is the case that would be some 18 million muslims. You think they attacked us on 9-11 just because we support Israel.....that is what they would like you to believe. We are the big Satan to them in more ways than Israel. We stand in their way for global worship of Allah. What 9-11 did was to show us that there is an enemy that wants us gone too.
Israel has always been our most dependable ally in the middle east, none other exists. Israel is surrounded by dictators and is surprisingly powerful. You would think that this tiny country whose population is basically shrinking would easily be swallowed up by its enemies who are breeding like rabbits. What is the land mass or tiny Israel compared to all other Muslim countries? Wouldnt you think that someone would take the Palestinians in?
Bottom line.....This issue is not about land ownership but all about a ARab nationalist movement and the religious aims of Islam attempting to eradicate a Jewish presence from the entire map of the Middle East.
"We have no right as Americans to tell Israel what they can or can't do. Hopefully they will use the resources to protect themselves"
You cannot conceal your extremism
"This is a conflict that will never go away. People do not understand this and think it is only an issue over land. This is more complicated than that. This is a religious war, has been and always will be. This is about Abraham, Sarah, Hagar and their children."
You cannot conceal your religious fanatacism.
"The Jews could give away half the land they are on and that would never be enough for the arabs"
And you know this how, oh Abraham, ya i forgot, get a grip on yourself.
"This is commandment from Allah."
Religious fanatacism exists only in the minds of men, as long as there are people like you to perpetuate this hate it will never change.
"This I just don't get. "
Im not surprised.
"and since terrorists love using human shields"
You're right the IDF loves to use Human Shields when they steal Palestian homes for Jewish settlers (i.e. http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1621&CategoryId;=1), but should we be surprised i mean this is what leading Jewsih Rabbis are calling for (i.e. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/leading-rabbi-encourages-idf-soldiers-to-use-palestinian-human-shields-1.320311 )
"civilians often get hit inadvertantly"
I can assure you that very few of those hit are hit inadvertantly but i don't expect someone as indoctrinated as you to accept that.
"the Palestinian terrorists specifically target civilians."
Thats it ya just keep justifying Isrealis terrorism to yourself.
"This conflict will never end....................."
As long as their are a majority of people like you on both sides i completely agree.
Where in the world are their Christians killing and murdering those who will not kneel to Christ? If there is terrorism in the world, what one religion is most always present? Islam
Do Christians recruit their own children to be suicide bombers?
What middle eastern country allows free speech, allows a woman to do what she wants without the fear that her head will come off?
Islam a religion of peace? so much so that they use the Palestinian people are pawns...this is true. Why? The goal? WORLDWIDE DOMINATION For whom? THE ONE AND ONLY ALLAH. This view is not shared by radicals but moderates alike. WHY? It says so in their holy book.
You fail to see the real issues....their will never be peace because the Arabs hate Jews...and this is religious whether you like it or not.
You are the Jew hater....so much so you cant even see the truth of the conflict itself.
I gave you examples of what the heads of Islam have said about this issue....and funny but you won't address them.......
"Where in the world are their Christians killing and murdering those who will not kneel to Christ"
Well imagine a large percentage of the american army is Chritian and they have been responsible for the death of voer 1.2 million Iraqis by current best estimates i.e. http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/middle_east/iraq/600000_deaths_in_iraq_continuing.htm
Now not all of these people have died at american hands, in fact a massive proportion were probably killed by their own country men but the fact still remains that the burden of responsibility must fall on american shoulders.
"What middle eastern country allows free speech, allows a woman to do what she wants without the fear that her head will come off"
Your country supports the kinds of regimes that champion this, the examples are many but the best and most relevant is Saudi Arabia
"Islam a religion of peace"
Yes i beleive it is, in as much as you can say Christianity is a religion of peace despite the death and destruction that have been carried out in its name.
" The goal? WORLDWIDE DOMINATION "
Sorry i think you are getting confused with your own imperial empire my friend.
"THE ONE AND ONLY ALLAH"
This is just too easy
"This view is not shared by radicals but moderates alike. WHY? It says so in their holy book."
Ya you know the Bible isnt all candy yams and big breasted women riding bareback on unicrons you know.
"You fail to see the real issues"
You fail to see past anything besaides your own hatred and religious and ideological indoctrination.
"You are the Jew hater....so much so you cant even see the truth of the conflict itself."
I treat Jews the same as i would treat any person, i give everyone the same respect and courtesy regradless of there religion, ethinicty, or nationality, i have no grudge against them despite what you so desparately want to beleive so go ahead if it gives you some sense of security in your small minded beleifs.
"I gave you examples of what the heads of Islam have said about this issue....and funny but you won't address them.......
"
I did adress them and i am still waiting for your reply,. also why did you simply post this argument and not dipsute any of mine, you do realise that the only way i will be informed is if you dispute me, or was that your intention all along?
Here is a portion of the rebuke i presented you're clearly unabale to find it (or more likely don't want to), i spent about three hours wrinting it, its the longest argument on this debate by a mile, go seraching thorugh my respones to you and you will find it easily:
"So don't give me crap about my post is all full of hatred."
Your post was full of hatred your just too blind to see that, you think Islam is a religion of hate, and that even the moderates are in favour of terrorism, you think these views are full of hate, what exactly do think is the definition of hate maybe your using somehting different to what im using.
"I provided you WITH FACTUAL STATEMENTS BY THE PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES."
Yes i know you did, i can read and interpret the words you know, and theres no need to shout. So if you think a few off the cuff remarks prove the kind extreme hateful views you espouse then ill provide you with some FACTUAL STATEMENTS BY ISREALIS THEMSELVES:
Isreali foreign minister Tzipi Livni said on Isreali tv after the Gaza massacre:"Israel demonstrated real hooliganism during the course of the recent operation, which I demanded"
Heres some very lovely quotes from Avigdor Lieberman currently Member of the Knesset, Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister of Israel :-
"What we state unequivocally is that we are completely opposed to what has been and still is the guiding principle of Israel's foreign policy: 'land for peace' ... There is either 'peace for peace' or the exchange of territory and populations."
2007 - (To an Israeli Arab fellow member of parliament :) "You are an ally in the Knesset of terrorists. I hope that Hamas will take care of you and all the rest once and for all. Don't worry, your day will come."
"If Israel has to deal with the Iranian threat by itself, it can do so."
2006 - Speaking of Israeli Arab legislators who support the Palestinian cause: "The fate of the collaborators in the Knesset will be identical to that of those who collaborated with the Nazis. Collaborators, as well as criminals, were executed after the Nuremberg trials at the end of the World War Two. I hope that will be the fate of collaborators in this house."
Following attacks by Palestian militants: "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."
In response to the proposal to release some of the many palestian people (Hamas officials in this case) being held in Isreali jails without trial as a gesture: ""It would be better to drown these prisoners in the Dead Sea if possible, since that's the lowest point in the world,"
I read in one of your arguments that Isreal is the only democracy in the ME, please read this and say that again: "http://www.rense.com/general93/inst.htm"
And here are some lovely quotes from some of the leading rabbis in Isreal:- This is a message encouraging the IDF to use Palestian civilians as human from Rabbis Yitzhak Shapira from the West Bank settlement: ""According to true Jewish values, your lives come before those of the enemy, whether he is a soldier or a civilian under protection. Therefore, you are forbidden from endangering your own life for the sake of the enemy, not even for a civilian," Shapira declared."
THIS MAYBE THE REASON THE IDF ARE INCREASING THE NUMBER OF CIVILIAN HUMAN SHIELDS (PARTICULARLY CHILDREN) THEY USE IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, IF YOU DONT BELEIVE THIS STATEMENT HERES THE PROOF, ITS NOT FROM SOME BIASED ARTICLE ITS FROM A HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATION, 15 CASES HAVE BEEN DOCUMENT SINCE 2004:"http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1621&CategoryId;=1"
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef in the run-up to the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian "peace negotiations" (notice they are in parenthesis) Rabbi Ovadia Yosef wished that "all the nasty people who hate Israel, like Abu Mazen [Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas], vanish from our world".
Rabbis Mordechai Eliyahu a leading figure in Isreali religious thought during the Gaza massacre urged the IDF not to refrain from killing palestian children in roder to save IDF lives, heres are some direct quotes "'If they don't stop after we kill 100,' said the rabbi, 'then we must kill a thousand. And if they do not stop after we kill a thousand, then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop, we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to stop them'.", ""I will pursue my enemies and apprehend them and I will not desist until I have eradicated them."
Feel free to check the veracity of these statements if you take issue with any of them, ill give you the sources if you think any are false, or taken out of context.
Israel is being attacked by people who want them dead. Islam wants to eradicate Jews period. It is not about living sharing and respecting. This is about survival of a race. How many Jews on earth...as opposed to Muslims?
You sympathize and your allegiance is with Islam, with the Palestinians and I think that you believe this is over land. It might be on the surface but that is not what lies underneath.
You just blamed Christians for wars. What about Islam? They kill their own children, their own people for an ideal. And you say they are peaceful? ARe they taught to love their enemy? What does Allah say for them to do?
Now I will discuss Christianity and what the scriptures say any day of the week...but this discussion is about Islam and what the Koran says.
Where does it say in the Koran that they should love their enemy? Have you even read the book? The fact is that Muhammed is looked upon them as a moral example....yet he did not even live up to the basic laws he layed down for everyone else. How many wives did he have? The Koran limits how many a man can marry, only four. Muhammed however thought this law did not pertain to him.
I am puzzled as to why you think Islam is so great. Islam encompasses every dimension of life. That means in Islamic countries there is no separation of church and state. Islam takes over homes, society, countries.........IT CONTROLS EVERYTHING. Do you think they would tolerate and accept your liberal opinions? They do not tolerate secularism. If Islam is in the majority........the minority have a difficult time. You talk about me being closed minded...........every been to the Middle East?
And tell me where in the world Christians are convincing, brainwashing their kids to be suicide bombers?
"2.191": And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.”
"5.33": The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement....
Sura 8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
"9.123": O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
"9.3": And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
"9.5": So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
What happens to those who change their religion?
"69.30": Lay hold on him, then put a chain on him,
"69.31": Then cast him into the burning fire,
"69.32": Then thrust him into a chain the length of which is seventy cubits.
"69.33": Surely he did not believe in Allah, the Great,
"69.34": Nor did he urge the feeding of the poor.
"69.35": Therefore he has not here today a true friend,
"69.36": Nor any food except refuse,
"69.37": Which none but the wrongdoers eat.
Peaceful?
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)
Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
Peaceful?
What is your definition of peace? LOL
And I am not saying all Muslims believe in terrorism. Those living in democratic countries....are bound by the laws there. Their hands are tied and they can't live like those in Islamic countries do.
The Koran teaches that Islam supercedes both Judism and Christianity and therefore Islam cant tolerate another religion sharing political rule. The Koran says, kill the infidel.
Jesus in no way shape or form would have said this…..kill those who do not believe.
Islam has always been a religion of violence. Muslims commit acts of terrorism IN OBEDIENCE to the word of Muhammed and when Christians do it, it is in opposition to Christ. Christ said to love even your enemy. If people don't do this, they are breaking Gods commandment to love.
Jesus preached the opposite. He did not want people to love him, to come to him, accepting him because of force, but because of faith. In Christianity there is freedom. Freedom to accept Christ or reject him.
There is hatred on both sides......that is a fact. But I believe the Jews despite what many you post here.....have tried to live along side an enemy who wants them dead.
"I am puzzled as to why you think Islam is so great."
WTF are you talking about i never said anything like that, i have no more of an interest in Islam than i do in Judaism
"You talk about me being closed minded"
You're not close minded, you were close minded a long long long long time ago way back when you were young, i have no idea what age you are but im guessing your ready to hit middle age, and you are a perfect example of indoctrination and a twisted ideology.
"every been to the Middle East?"
Yes i was in iran for two months and i loved it, you will not meet kinder more hospitable people no matter where you go, and thats coming from a person who has done a lot of travelling.
"And tell me where in the world Christians are convincing, brainwashing their kids to be suicide bombers? "
You are blind to all around you.
"And I am not saying all Muslims believe in terrorism. Those living in democratic countries....are bound by the laws there. Their hands are tied and they can't live like those in Islamic countries do."
You are a twisted individual.
"Islam has always been a religion of violence. Muslims commit acts of terrorism IN OBEDIENCE to the word of Muhammed and when Christians do it, it is in opposition to Christ. Christ said to love even your enemy. If people don't do this, they are breaking Gods commandment to love. "
You should feel deeeply ashamed of yourself for trying desparately to smear another religion and culture, ine that has been far more tolerant and respectful of Christianity down through the ages.Let me ask you; you spew this disgusting hatefilled filth and you actually expect people to take you seriously?
"Freedom to accept Christ or reject him."
Christ was a man, flesh and blood, and he was no more the son of God or God himself than you or I, i can assure you of this.
"There is hatred on both sides"
Ya i know and you seem to think perpetuating that hatred is a good thing, the fact is the Islamic faith has far more justifcation to feel insecure , the US has inhabited and control those countries thorugh proxy regimes for the last 100 yrs preventing democracy, they have caused incalculable suffering to the populations there, you are blinded by your corrupt ideology.
"They want worldwide domination.......for allah."
Ya ya whatever go tell someone who cares, actually these poeple would probably love to hear from you ->