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Joe_Cavalry All Day Every Day


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Debate Score:42
Arguments:17
Total Votes:50
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 What came first, the Chicken or the egg? (17)

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What came first, the Chicken or the egg?

What came first, the Chicken or the egg?
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9 points

The answer actually depends on your definition of chicken, not egg. Everyone knows what an egg is but what exactly is a chicken. Clearly the first chicken egg was laid by a bird that was not a chicken. Two birds of a different species mated, and the female of that species laid the chicken egg. The genetic variation comes from cross breading and the combination of dna that results.

Hey, I like that ;)

My line of thinking exactly!

There was a first chicken... but that came in the first egg :)

Problem:The solution to the age-old question, "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" depends on whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist. The answer, however, is still the same if you assume that the egg in question is a chicken egg. "The chicken came first." If the egg in question is NOT a chicken egg, then the egg came first because there were dinosaur eggs before there were chickens.

The crux of the problem hinges on the definition of a chicken egg. Is a chicken egg an egg that comes from a chicken or an egg that contains a chicken? Many people think of a chicken egg as a chicken eggshell that contains a chicken fetus. In other words, the chicken and the egg problem exist because people typically think of a chicken egg as a single entity (chicken eggshell and chicken fetus together). I will attempt to show that this configuration (chicken eggshell and chicken fetus together) is not necessary in order to create a chicken and that an egg should thus be classified by the species that laid it rather than by what species it contains.

I think that it is safe to say that the chicken fetus is the most obvious part of a chicken egg. The eggshell, however, is trickier because if the eggshell contains any genetic material, then one could argue that the eggshell is part of the fetus and thus the chicken egg could be classified as a single entity. Since the eggshell is made of calcium, we can safely say that the chicken egg consists of two distinct parts (the chicken eggshell and chicken fetus).

A problem still exists, however. Who generates the eggshell? If the fetus generates the eggshell then one could argue that the eggshell is part of the fetus and thus a fertilized chicken egg could be classified as a single entity. But there exists unfertilized eggs. This means that a fetus is not necessary in order to generate the eggshell. Maybe all that is necessary to generate the eggshell is the unfertilized genetic material provided by the hen. Since the complexity of generating an eggshell is beyond the capability of unfertilized genetic material, and since the unfertilized genetic material belongs to (and is generated by) the hen, it is safe to say that the hen generates the eggshell.

This reduces the eggshell to the status of a container. If the eggshell is nothing more than a container, then almost any container with egg like properties should be sufficient to incubate a chicken fetus. If an eggshell/container is capable of carrying almost any fetus of a different species to term, then we cannot classify the eggshell/container by its content. Rather, we should classify the eggshell/container by the species that created the eggshell/container. For example, if scientists were successful in hatching a chicken from a plastic container, would you then call the plastic container and the chicken fetus (together) a chicken egg? Or would you say that the plastic container held a chicken fetus? As another example, if scientists were able to extract the fertilized genetic material from a chicken egg and insert it into a duck egg, would the duck egg be reclassified as a chicken egg? Or would you maintain the "duck egg" classification and state that the duck egg in question contains a chicken fetus? My belief is that (in both examples) most people would choose the later (maintain the "plastic container/duck egg" classification and add the "chicken fetus" qualifier). In other words, an egg should be classified by the species that laid it rather than by what species it contains.

Once we agree on the definition of a chicken egg (an eggshell generated by a hen regardless of content), the solution is trivial.

Solution:

Creationist: God said, "Let there be a hen." Otherwise, who would sit on the egg? Alternatively, God could have said, "Let there be a rooster." and then decided that the rooster needed companionship and so He created the hen and they then begot the egg. NOTE: Since God is perfect, it is unlikely that he said, "Let there be a chicken egg. Oh, and I almost forgot, let there be a hen to sit on that chicken egg. Ooh, wait, and a rooster!"

Evolutionist: Some animal (not a chicken) laid an egg (not a chicken egg). The fetus inside the egg underwent some minor evolutionary change that resulted into a hen. This hen then laid the first chicken egg. Alternatively, the result was a rooster. The rooster then mated with some animal (not a chicken) that laid an egg (not a chicken egg, since the rooster's DNA could not have affected the egg). The result was (eventually) a hen who then laid the first chicken egg.

Chicken and the Egg, Alternate Solution

A chicken and an egg are lying in bed. The chicken is leaning against the headboard smoking a cigarette with a satisfied smile on its face. The egg, looking a bit ticked off, grabs the sheet, rolls over and says ... Well, I guess we finally answered "THAT question!"

4 points

I think the evolutionary explination (although a very simplistic view of it) pretty much sums it up.

Stav(69) Disputed
2 points

Great argument.

I wouldn't comment the creationist because the principle behind the perfect god is one that cannot be argued with, it's simply the perfect argument. Maybe the "perfect" prefix was made up exactly for dealing with arguments, as long as it's around you either believe it or ignore it.

I do like to comment the evolutionist.

Saying that X animal produced a Y animal egg with a DNA differences that separates X and Y into two separate animals classification is like saying there might be evolutionary differences between human generations.

The Chicken\Egg questions illustrates by trick questioning our inability, after declaring all chicken in the Y animal group, since they all look and act the same, to cope with a concept such as 0.001 of X and 0.999 of Y when it comes to such an obvious in-front-of-you entity as a life form, an animal, a person.

Imagine we had an evolutionary math. We wouldn't have this question's problem, we could easily consider the "It's a really slow process, still going on" answer. But we'd have worse dilemmas, like what evolutionary stage\branch is X person comparing to Y? What should we do when a white chick breeds with an African?

It's the biggest pile of tree branches there is, with no point for science to sort things up by defying them, classifying into groups for easy research.

2 points

When you say, "What should we do when a white chick breeds with an African?" Do you mean a chick as in a baby chicken or as in Britney Spears, for example? And and African what, exactly. I'm a little confused, you see?

Nice information this is the most I seen you type lol........................................................................................

3 points

Solution To The Chicken Or Egg? Question

There is tale of back holes and things, a tale of how a chicken swallowed himself.

It was reported that the diary of a certain chicken had been discovered which contained personal detailed accounts of the secret of how to swallow ones self and thus provided ground breaking research, which led to discovering the answer to the question raised in the old Chinese proverb ''which came first, the chicken or the egg? '

Well the story goes as such...

Chicken was also not only a plain farm chicken but he was also an avid scientist and he was pondering one day about life, the universe and things as you do when your a chicken. He was thinking about the old Chinese proverb 'which came first? , the chicken or the egg? ' and he pondered and theorized and wracked his brain and out it popped, it was something to do with black holes and electron acceleration.

After many years of research he set out his experiment one final time to prove or disprove his theories. What he did was set-up an electron accelerator in his bedroom and proceeded to create an infinite loop which allowed him to swallow himself whole and turn into an egg. The problem was once had had become the egg, he had to get back to being a chicken. This process took years each time as he had to be born again, crack the shell, learn to eat, get pecked on by his mum. You know all those infant and adolescent experiences? , well, he had to live them again every time to be able get to an age where he could start to ponder again, read his notes and re-create his experiments etc.

Because of his over-use of the electron accelerator, he caused a rift in the space time continuum and was forever caught between two parallel universes and thus depending on which universe you’re in depends on which came first.

A tall tale, by Steven C Robinson

2 points

spookily paradoxical,intrinsically so!!!

Side: no chicken and no egg no reality
2 points

In a logic point of view, it was the chicken; in a scientific point of view, it was the egg. In a temporal order, what matters is its final cause, as Aristóteles says.

Side: no chicken and no egg no reality
2 points

Well, it’s still unclear whether chicken eggs or chickens came first (the intended question in the original riddle), said Darla Zelenitsky, a paleontologist of the University of Calgary in Alberta who was the first scientist to closely analyze the dinosaur nest.

But interpreted literally, the answer to the riddle is clear. Dinosaurs were forming bird-like nests and laying bird-like eggs long before birds (including chickens) evolved from dinosaurs.

"The egg came before the chicken," Zelenitsky said. "Chickens evolved well after the meat-eating dinosaurs that laid these eggs."

So the original riddle might now be rephrased: Which came first, the dinosaur or the egg? Meanwhile, the new nest provides some of the strongest evidence in North America in favor of the bird-like egg over the chicken.

Supporting Evidence: Which Came First? Eggs Before Chickens, Scientists Now Say (www.livescience.com)
Side: no chicken and no egg no reality

Well then, in that case, take my argument and substitute the word "Dinosaur" for the word "Chicken" and you'll have your answer. ;)

Side: no chicken and no egg no reality

As Dan Dumitre (Ama_Deviant) said in a different debate, the chicken came first.

Side: Chicken

Researchers in U.K. say Proof is in the Protein Found in Chicken's Ovaries, Used to Form Eggshell.

THEREFORE, THE CHICKEN

Supporting Evidence: Chicken (www.cbsnews.com)
Side: Chicken

In honor of you upcoming milestone, i thought it would be cool to look back at your very first debate.

P.S. It was the egg

Side: Chicken