Should Joe change his name to Jose?
You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California .
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 per hour "cash under the table".
Ready? Now pay attention...
Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.
Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year.
Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy.
Jose Illegal pays $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year.
Jose Illegal still has $25,200.00.
Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.
Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $25,200.00.
Joe Legal has to make his $9,631.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $25,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school.
Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
Oh yeah, since there isn't enough money to pay for all of Jose Illegal's benefits, Joe Legal's taxes will be going UP!
Joe all the way
Side Score: 18
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Jose all the way
Side Score: 18
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How did Jose's children get into school without the feds noticing he was an illegal? Seems Jose has a good deal going for himself and his family if your calculations are somewhat correct. I think Jose should be penalized and change his name to Joe Legal! Side: Joe all the way
I think I heard something in school where an illegal immigrant can send his children to school without having to be citizens. We saw a movie in Spanish where a brother and sister came to CA and took ESL lessons in an adult school- no problems or questions asked. >.< Side: Joe all the way
I believe you are correct, most states, maybe all but at least a few, do not deny a child education based on the actions of their parents. Which while expensive, is the right thing to do. I mean can you imagine looking a little kid in the eye who has no concept of any laws their parents are breaking, and saying you aren't like the other kids, you don't get to go to school? No, kids are innocent, and as a fair and just society it's our responsibility to take care of them as far as education, having food, etc. when the parents obviously cannot and while they are located here in the US. I don't think many people at all would argue that's a bad course of action. But Joe Calvary is incorrect in some of his other points, illegal immigrants do not qualify for any gov programs like food stamps, unemployment, Social Security, etc. Of course there are always scammers, and there's not much anyone can do about that, but an illegal immigrant cannot walk into a gov building and ask to be included in a gov program. Which is as it should be. But again, the kids need to be separated from the parents as far as these programs are concerned. Side: Joe all the way
Yes, the Supreme Court decided that the children of illegal immigrants could not be denied access to public school services, largely on the grounds that the children are not themselves responsible for crossing the border illegally and shouldn't be further penalized for the choices of their parents. If the parents get popped as illegals the whole family can certainly be deported, though (unless they have a child who was born in the U.S., as being born in the U.S. automatically makes you a citizen regardless of the citizenship of your parents). Side: Jose all the way
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I'd much rather be Jose, especially since I'm in the WONDERFUL position of being a white Christian male! Oh and now that I'm 18 and will be entering the work force after college, that'll make it even better! The country is experiencing reverse racism. Now, I know this is about illegal immigration, but race can also play a card here... Therefore, I firmly believe there are only a few reasons I didn't get into the Naval Academy this year. (1) My sister was there and they wanted to see if I truly wanted it or if I was just feeling forced into it. (2) My blue and gold officer wrote a bad review. (3) I'm white and this year has been the highest amount of minorities they have ever accepted.... ever. Connection to the president perhaps? Side: Joe all the way
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On this side, because I want everyone to see why no one should trust Joe's "facts" and the otherside looks full already. Joe makes 52,000 a year. State tax taken acccording to the CA State Tax Code Claim 1 or 3 = $2532 Claim 2 or 4 = $1257 Claim 4 = $1420 We'll do worst case, say he's a single dude, after state taxes he has $49,468 Now for Uncle Sam according to this handy tool is 17.67%... okay, 17.67% of 52000 = 9188.40 So, 49468-9188.40, Joe has $40,279.60 after taxes. Not $31,231.00. Now this is with 0 write offs, no one really pays the full amount, in reality Joe probably has around 45k left over after State and Federal taxes. Anyway. Now if each person paid as much as Joe (Calvary) seems to think individuals pay for healthcare, on top of what employers already pay, which is a ridiculous amount, then we would have fixed it a long time ago. As it is though, Joe probably needs to pay between 0 and 100 per month out of his check for Healthcare. And 100 is a really crappy employer. With crappy employer, Joe still has $39,079. Much more than this other mythical character. Not to mention he gets to see a doctor a couple times a year, instead of only when he's already dying of cancer. But reading Joe's piece of fiction, one can see how the republicans have gotten so great at getting poor souls like Joe to vote against their own self-interest. Fear is a powerful tool. I would also add that you will not find many employers so benevolent as to pay an illegal immigrant $15 an hour. Likely Jose is really making $8.50 an hour. Which is why, while paying lip-service for the ear fodder of the Joe's of the world about a big fence, Republicans, deep in the pockets of big business and industry, will never ever raise a fingure to do a single thing about illegal immigration. Side: fiction can be fun
Not to mention that no social security means no welfare, and with the majority of illegals using fake documents to fool employers (well, it's an ask no questions and I'll tell you no lies system with that) they're hardly going to present those fake documents to the government for scrutiny. Joe is, once again, living in a dream world. Side: Jose all the way
I agree that illegal immigrants have it worse all together. But it's not our fault that they came here illegally and it shouldn't be our problem. And it's not fair to those Mexicans who make sacrifices to come here legally. Is it? That's right I'm not racist so you can drop that card. Side: Joe all the way
Again, I'm not sure the order, but you seem to think that other's would see yourself as racist if you think something should be done about immigration. And again, like the other debate I replied to you in. I do not think that is a racist notion, nor would I assume you or anyone would be racist for holding that position. Again, a strawman has been set up, and whenever there is an issue that may or may not have anything to do with it, talking heads tell you "they think you're racist for this." All logical debate is abandoned, and both sides circle their wagons. And you Jake, by your last sentence, have fallen into the blatant fallacy head first. The fact of the matter is, both liberals and conservatives alike are against illegal immigration, for different reasons perhaps, but aganinst it none the less. Who on earth would be for it Jake? Well, follow the money trail. Illegal immigrants can't vote, so money is the only thing to be gained. Big business loves illegal immigration. So, I don't care if you are liberal or conservative, big business supports campaigns, the common man cannot afford them no matter who your are. So, you get all defensive about race, and continue ignoring the real issues. Meanwhile, no one on the otherside is offering a racist attack at all. Side: fiction can be fun
I would win this argument for the simple fact that you did not state whether the kids are healthy or not. Due to this, I choose Joe's family to have two children, one who is age 17, 500 pounds overweight, a diabetic, whose daily food intake requires an extra $2,000/mo. The second child, age 22, paralyzed from the neck down and requires a maid to attend to him 24/7, not to mention extra medicines and equipment he might need from time to time. Jose on the other hand has two children, ages 18 and 20, who are extremely healthy and are models for LL Bean. Jose all the way. Side: Jose all the way
"In recent years, public concern about illegal immigration has often focused on the costs associated with illegal aliens’ use of public benefits and the extent to which these benefits serve as an incentive for immigration. In 1996, the Congress took steps to address these concerns through welfare and immigration reform legislation. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (P.L. 104-193) further restricted the limited access of illegal aliens to federal public benefits and limited their access to state and local public benefits. In addition, the legislation established requirements for states and selected federal agencies to report information to the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) on any individual they know is unlawfully in the United States. In the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (P.L. 104-208), the Congress addressed several enforcement issues, including the need for improved border control and better ways of deterring the use of fraudulent documents. The act also requires us to report on the extent to which means-tested public benefits are provided to illegal aliens for the use of eligible individuals. This is most likely to occur when an illegal alien parent not eligible for aid receives benefits on behalf of his or her U.S. citizen child. A child born in the United States to an illegal alien obtains U.S. citizenship at birth regardless of the parent’s immigration status and, as any other citizen in need, may receive welfare and other benefits . . . Although illegal alien parents are not eligible for assistance, their income and assets are taken into account when determining the eligibility of and benefit amounts for their citizen children. Aid to Families With Dependent Children (AFDC), the Food Stamp program, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), and Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) rental housing assistance [are] likely to provide benefits to U.S. citizen children through an ineligible parent . . . In fiscal year 1995, about $1.1 billion in AFDC and Food Stamp benefits were provided to households with an illegal alien parent for the use of his or her citizen child. This amount accounted for about 3 percent of AFDC and 2 percent of Food Stamp benefit costs . . . California counties’ studies of AFDC households indicate that the rates and types of potential misrepresentation or fraud are similar both for households headed by illegal aliens and for the general welfare population." - U.S. General Accounting Office Report to Congressional Committees, 1997 http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98030.pdf ................ "Our findings show that many of the preconceived notions about the fiscal impact of illegal households turn out to be inaccurate. In terms of welfare use, receipt of cash assistance programs tends to be very low, while Medicaid use, though significant, is still less than for other households. Only use of food assistance programs is significantly higher than that of the rest of the population. Also, contrary to the perceptions that illegal aliens don't pay payroll taxes, we estimate that more than half of illegals work 'on the books.' On average, illegal households pay more than $4,200 a year in all forms of federal taxes. Unfortunately, they impose costs of $6,950 per household . . . Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Illegal households already impose only about 46 percent as much in costs on the federal government as other households. Thus, the amount of money that can be saved by curtailing their use of public services even further is probably quite limited. Moreover, the fact that benefits are often received on behalf of their U.S.-citizen children means that it is very difficult to prevent illegal households from accessing the programs they do. And many of the programs illegals use most extensively are likely to be politically very difficult to cut, such as the Women Infants and Children (WIC) nutrition program." - Center for Immigration Studies Executive Summary, 2004 http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html ................ "In most cases immigrants will pay at least as much in lifetime federal taxes as they receive in benefits . . . as a study by the Immigration Policy Center points out: 'The vast majority of immigrants are not eligible to receive any of these [welfare] benefits for many years after their arrival in the United States. . . . Legal permanent residents cannot receive SSI [Supplemental Security Income], which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards.' Illegal immigrants are also ineligible for any kind of federal welfare benefits--with the exception of emergency health care. Many of the Congressional proposals to legalize this population would not allow these workers to collect welfare until waiting up to eight years for a green card and five years after that." - The Wall Street Journal, "Immigration and Welfare," May 2007 http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/ ................ "Undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive any 'welfare' benefits and even legal immigrants are severely restricted in the benefits they can receive. As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007 report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public 'welfare' benefits -- ever. Legal permanent residents (LPRs) must pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems for approximately 10 years before they are eligible to receive benefits when they retire. In most cases, LPRs can not receive SSI, which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards. A 2007 analysis of welfare data by researchers at the Urban Institute reveals that less than 1 percent of households headed by undocumented immigrants receive cash assistance for needy families, compared to 5 percent of households headed by native-born U.S. citizens." - Houston Chronicle, "Immigration Chronicle" (editor's blog), January 2008 http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/ Side: Jose all the way
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