"Keep in mind that during the last days, Bush Jr. was considering having soldiers protecting the white house."

It's not surprising the GWB was really a coward in the end. His public statements & reactions to that crisis were pitifull. He looked like a scared lil bunny to me.

"Obama has talked about a civil army.... why?"

It's not an "army" at all...just a bunch of volunteers to help out their communities.

"How old are you?"

Probably older than you kiddo.

"The media is to keep people informed and the government in check?"

Yes, the press is what's called the Fourth Estate.

"While all that are enlisted in any armed service, they are sworn to uphold and obey the Constitution of the United States"

...and to follow the lawful orders of their civilian leadership, period.

Agree & well-stated. This group of Right-wing wackos really poses no threat to anyone. They are waaay too small a group to do anything. Most of them will probably just end up in a militia group, like McVeigh & we all know how THAT turned out!

...which are provided for in the U.S. Constitution, period.

This is a ridiculous "argument". These wackos look extremist because they are a very small, Right-wing, extreme group, period.

"The military should specifically spell out what constitutes a lawful order and what does not in order to keep the government in check."

That's already been done in many military manuals. "Illegal" orders should not be followed at all. All soldiers should know that by now.

More sheer & utter nonsense. I've already proven that gun registration of all kinds happens at both the state & federal level, and it's totally Constitutional. Checkmate!

"You DO NOT need a license to own a gun"

Wrong again. Fully automatic firearms of any kind (including military assault rifles) have been subject to requirements for registration by owners & licensing of dealers since the passage of the National Firearms Act in 1934. Also, AZ, CT, HI, MI, NV, NY, and NC currently all have some form of registration process for guns.

Before you happen to get all uppity about this, all of these laws are totally Constitutional:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/19/taking_liberties/entry5253857.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/21/ taking_liberties/entry5258192.shtml

Checkmate confirmed! :)

This is NOT a game my friend. Quit treating it like it is. These are serious issues that require serious people discussing them.

Hmmm, then I guess owning a gun is not a "right", since one usually needs to own a license or a permit to own one...lol...checkmate...

Look, if the reason that none of our rights are absolute is because things like yelling fire in a crowed theater, having human sacrifices at religious ceremonies, etc. are viewed by the population at large as unreasonable actions/positions. Opposition to gay marriage in the USA is based almost solely on religious reasons, which is why we have a separation of church & state...whether you or anyone else likes it or not. There is no reasonable position that can justify gays not being able to get a civil marriage.

I personally am more in favor of civil unions, which, as far as I can tell, are virtually the same as civil marriage under various state laws, just because it takes the whole "gay marriage equals my church is going to marrying gays soon" (which they won't be) nonsense off of the table.

Whether gays get to marry or get to enter into civil unions matters little to me. It's six of one & half a dozen of another to me personally.

"So if none of our rights are absolute, then gays can't get married."

Huh??

"But if your argument is that the law can be changed, then Roe VS Wade can be uverturned."

Look, if you think that the U.S. Supreme Court is going to go back to the days where Americans didn't have a right to privacy, especially in terms of their medical decisions, then, IMHO, you are out of your mind...

"1. It means that the government cannot place any obstacles that prevent you from exercising your constitutional right (for example, throwing you in jail for exercising your constitutional right)."

None of our rights are absolute. For example, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater & you can't libel someone.

"2. It means that the government will pay you to exercise your constitutional right (for example, pay you to get an abortion if you can't afford one)."

This is, of course, a strawman argument...ugh...

Look, it's obvious that a lot of you "conservatives" don't like abortion for whatever reason...mostly it's for religious reasons, but whatever. The FACT is that you can't force your own religious-based opinions on others in the USA. We have a separation of church & state in this country!

Abortions are merely medical procedures...nothing more, nothing less...and they are medical procedures that all you privileged white guys can't ever get...so get over it already!

Roe v. Wade will NEVER be overturned...move on already...

"A parent cannot just abandon their child. That is illegal."

Actually, there are a couple of states that do allow new parents to do this.

"One, its against their moral convictions."

We don't get to pick & choose how our collective tax dollars are spent, through "morals" or otherwise, period.

"Two, it is not a life saving procedure"

...except that it frequently is...ooooppppssss...

"Abortion is a choice (not a necesity) that arose from the choice (not the necesity) to have sexual intercourse instead of other forms of sex"

Wrong again, abortions are protected under the Constitution, period.

"There isn't a growing need for society to sponsor free abortions"

...in your own, heavily-biased opinion that is.

"Taxes are to help provide necessities of society."

No, taxes are a monetary source for our govt., period.

"So what were you blabbering about then, huh?"

I was simply stating a FACT, which you tried to twist out of context through lies, that one of the only reasons that America's population continues to grow is through immigration. Abortions have nothing to do with that issue, period. That's just you, again, trying to change the issue that is at hand...unsuccessfully I might add...

BTW, you are the KING of the "nonsensical argument" on here Joe...don't project your faults onto me tyvm!

"I which the federal government did only those things spelled out in the constitution"

...like abortions, which have U.S. Supreme Court affirmed Constitutional protection!

Again with the obsession over "Facials, blow jobs"...what is up with that??

A fetus doesn't have a "life" BTW.

Gambling, gambling, gambling...repeating the same insanely nonsensical arguments over & over & over again do NOT make them valid!

"The law states that you can legally have an abortion within a certain period of time."

No, it does not!

Abortion is NOT an "optional procedure"...it is a simple medical procedure that women have a Constitutional RIGHT to!

"Which is why people who cannot afford an abortion should abstain from sex"

...in your opinion. I can just see the GOP ads now..."Stop the poor from having sex!!" Now there's a "winning" argument!

"Lets say that I buy a house and then realize that I can't make the payments, are you going to subsidize me?"

It depends. There are a lot of people out there that were lied to when they purchased loans, and I feel that at least some of them should have the ability to try & get a judge to modify their terms so they can try & stay in their homes.

"Or is it only women who need these special priviledges you're tallking about."

LMAO! Since when are CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS "special privileges"??

And you are in dire need of a valid argument that isn't absurd on the face of it.

Wow, thanks for admitting how you really feel about sex apparently. Never given your so-called "wife" an orgasm eh? I sure could...lol...

"It's a one way street, right? Only women get to force other people into things, right?"

Wrong, once again, you are merely trying to shift the focus away from the FACT that women in the USA have a Constitutional right to abortions, period.

"How old are you again?"

Likely older than you my friend.

"Are you a woman?"

No, but I sure could show your "wife" a good time, unlike you apparently...lol...

Once again, nice try at switching the focus of this debate, but it's not working.

Whether you like it or not (and we ALL know that you don't), women have a Constitutional right to have an abortion, period.

Thanks for NOT answering my question. I knew you didn't have it in you...lol...

BTW, you OBVIOUSLY never bother to read what you type, or you'd be cowering in embarrassment by now...

"We should spend it on useful things like national defense instead of abortions"

Translation: I value the ability to make war more than I do a woman's Constitutional rights. What a surprise...

My goodness...your obession with "facials" is quite telling, especially from someone that tries to devalue the importance of sex in a relationship. I'll bet that I could give your so-called wife a REAL good time...lol...

"Which is why our tax dollar should go towards national defense instead of abortions"

...in your opinion. BTW, how much would paying for low-income women's abortions cost in relation to "national defense"?? Can you say drop in the bucket??

"If you are a woman and you can't afford an abortion, then you should either abstain from sex or suffer the consequences of your actions."

Ah, more of "the poor have no rights to have sex" from another Right-wing buffoon...ugh...

Yea, and you live in fear because of how you view human nature. As I've said before, "conservatives" fear the nature of man, and this irrational fear drives almost ALL of their ideologies, period. Thanks for making my point!

No, you are simply saying that you are NOT willing to pay for a woman to exercise her full Constitutional rights, period.

"Are you an idiot or do you just play on on CD?"

Hey, YOU'RE the one making ridiculous argument after ridiculous argument...so don't try & project your opinion about yourself onto me.

"After she has made her choice, WHY ARE THE REST OF US RESPONSIBLE FOR HER ACTIONS/DECISIONS/CHOICES? Are women so mentally inferior to men that they need to be protected like little children? Are you conceding that women are incapable of sound judgement and that we are thus responsible to save women from their stupid decisions; save them from the consequences of their actions/choices?"

Nice try at changing the subject, but it's not working. Woman have a Constitutional RIGHT to abortions that the govt. cannot restrict, period.

"No, you can't make the same argument because National Security is a necesity"

...and so is someone's Constitutional rights!

Enough already with the silly gambling analogies!

"low-income people should settle for facials, blow jobs, etc. They should not risk pregnancy by having sexual intercourse. So they can have all the sex they want, just not sexual intercourse"

Wow, and you choose to repeat the indefensible position of limiting how much sex low-income people can have. You really can't be serious with that nonsense.

"Federal money cannot go towards abortions. The new health care program also has this wording in it."

Once again, and as per usual, you've got it all wrong, again...ugh...

Keep dreaming Joe...I graduated college a loooong while ago.

"The law currently state that Federal money cannot go towards abortions."

Obama lifted the so-called global gag order a while back.

"The new health care program also has this wording in it."

There is ZERO new wording in the new health care law about abortions.

"National security is a necessity"

...and so is a person's Constitutional rights, period.

Once again, you can lose the silly gambling analogy, especially since you're in favor of rich people having as much sex as they want to...lol...

You're repeated gambling analogy is just silly. You can quit making it now.

Well, I'll probably shock you by saying that I'm not a fan of the global warming theory either, and I happen to be a meteorologist by trade. I NEVER debate global warming on the Internet either.

"I actually encourage it, but I still don't want to pay for it."

Wow, what a typical "American attitude"..."I'm all for it, but I don't wanna pay for it". My goodness...how selfish a society have we really become??

"Once again, the only exception could be if the womans life is at risk"

...in your own, narrow opinion that is. Women can legally get abortions for all kinds of reasons right now...wake up...

"No, thank you for telling us all that only you and your liberal friends have the right to force the rest of us to pay for whatever it is that you guys determine is the right thing to do."

Nonsense. I could make the same argument about tax cuts for the rich, the Iraq War, etc., etc., but the FACT is that we don't get to specifically decide how our tax dollars are spent by the govt., period.

"If you are a low-income woman, the last thing you need is a baby. Since contraceptives are not 100% effective, this means that you should abstain from sexual intercourse. Facials, blow jobs, etc. are OK. The law states that you can legally have an abortion within a certain period of time."

LOL...so, low-income people should not have sex, but higher income people should. LMAO! That's some indefensible position you've laid out there...lol!

"But, by all means, try and prove me wrong. Go and get pregnant (or get someone pregnant) and then try to get a government sponsored free abortion"

Oh, by all means, I do not submit that the laws are the way that I would like them. Far from it...yet... :)

"It only falls under the health care moniker if the pregnancy is due to rape, incest, or it adversily affects the mother's health"

...in your own, narrow interpretation that is. Seriously, who died & left you as judge, jury, and executioner?? Really!

"Abortions do NOT fall under a procedure that can save a life."

Of course they do, sometimes. Many women have been saved when a pregnancy has gone horribly wrong. To put a fetus before the life of real, live human woman is simply insane.

"Based on your logic, plastic surgery is a medical procedure as well. Should it also be covered?"

Stop making the same, tired arguments again & again. NO ONE is advocating for silly plastic surgery procedures to be paid for by govt. money, period.

"When you stop trying to tell me that I am responsible to bail out everyone whenever they screw up."

Well, I've NEVER said that...that's a strawman argument, period.

"You know, liberals are like little kids"

...and "conservatives" are greedy, period.

"Honestly, how old are you again?"

LOL...likely older than the likes of you...

My goodness...do I "condone" the Iraq War because my tax dollars, in part, went to pay for it?? Nope. Think a little bit before you speak!

"Whether that means having the child OR paying for their abortion."

And what happens when they cannot afford an abortion?? You burden them with a potential child that they don't want, regardless of how the woman got pregnant in the first place??

"Just how I don't wanna pay for someone else's breast implants or laser eye surgery."

Ugh...as IF these silly, elective medical procedures are anywhere near as important as an abortion. Please...

Wow, nice lack of a coherent argument there Joe. I really just don't know what to make of you sometimes. Your borderline misogyny is quite disturbing.

Is it in the interest of the "greater good" that women be denied their full ability to exercise their own Constitutional rights?? I don't think so.

"Which is why the group supporting abortions is called Pro-Choice not Pro-Necessity"

Because the issue is about women having the right to freely choose whether or not to have a simple medical procedure, peirod.

"I'm willing to make an exception for rape and incest victims. I'm also willing tomake an exception if the mother's health is at stake."

Once again, how "magnanimous" of you to sit in judgment of when a woman should be able to exercise her Constitutional rights.

"Gambling is also a choice"

...which I am personally opposed to, but who is asking that people's monetary gambling debts by paid off by the govt.??

What is really true does not change with the wind IMO. Opinions may change but truth usually does not. The only non-example of this is scientific truth, which is almost always evolving. Unfortunately, when issues of science are politicized, the first thing that usually gets through out the window is the truth, and I say that as a scientist myself.

I'm not here to make friends "Joe"...sorry...it's just not an issue with me. How my so-called "friends" one has on here does not seem to correlate to whether or not their positions are true or not.

"This rule was put into place because people here hate down voters..., so your down voting isn't buying you any friends"

...as far as you know.

"Well..., except for me. I don't down vote or make people my enemy just because I disagree with them"

It's funny...I actually thought about becoming an "Ally" of you, but I looked some more at some of the stuff that you post on here routinely, and I just coukldn;'t do it...lol...

I'm not here to make friends...I'm here to debate issues & "win" debates...whatever that means...

How comforting it is to know that so many people just love to use strawman arguments.

We live in a representative democracy people. If you don't like the way the govt. is spending taxpayer money, then vote those people out! If you get enough people that think the same way as you, then you will get what you want. That's how our system works, period.

Who's working for the govt.??

The "waste, fraud, and abuse" line is used waaay too often by all sides when it comes to govt. operations. It's not like one could balance the federal budget just by dealing with that alone.

Nice opinion there...backed up by absolutely ZERO facts, as per usual...ugh...

"Human nature is bad."

Thanks for proving my point!

"If you were good, you'd let me live my live."

LOL...everyone has to live within a certain set of rules. That's what society is all about buddy.

"If you had your druthers, you'd tell me that a woman has a right to an abortion and that I have to fund it."

Oh whoa was you...having to pay really, really, really small amount of money so that a truly low-income woman has ALL of her Constitutional rights available to her. If "she" were a "he", my guess is that you would feel differently...lol...

"It's real easy to be a nice a guy when all you do is take someone else's money in order to give it to someone else in order to make you look like a nice guy. If you were truly a nice guy you'd use your own money."

LOL...like I don't contribute my own money. I love when you "conservatives" whine about "other people's money"...it' just shows how greedy you really are...

"There is no law that says 'Go forth and have sex with every man you see in order to break the ice and make him love you.'"

Did anyone ever say that there was?? Nope, that's a strawman argument.

"Abstinence is a valid argument in this"

...which one cannot force onto another adult in our society, period.

Thanks once again for showing that you (and apparently only you) are capable of determining when a low-income woman should be able to receive a totally legal medical procedure that's guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution...ugh...

Who ever said that most abortions result from "promiscous sex"??

"If a woman doesn't have money for an abortion, then she can turn a few tricks to raise the money."

It really is unbeleivale that you continue to spew this misogynistic stuff as if it's a valid "argument".

"While I believe health care is an essential right, abortions do not fall in that category."

My goodness, abortions are merely a medical procedure that firmly falls under the "health care" moniker.

Ugh...when are you going to stop pushing that mindless debate? Your continued worship of a dead old codger like Uncle Milty is kinda creepy.

First off, I could care less how many "reward points " I have. Secondly, I read the original article before, and I still think that the original OP is a silly question.

Nice "argument" there...your parents should be really proud of what they have produced...ugh...

That's a ridiculous answer, and I'll bet that you know it too. In a representative democracy, we do not get to decide specifically how our collective tax monies are spent!

"I find it quite interesting how liberals think that it is OK to kill an innocent fetus but it is not OK to kill a convicted murderer."

Hmmmmm, one of those is actually alive & the other one is an unviable fetus, not a real person, period.

"In a democracy people decide what is legal. For example, should we make abortion legal?"

Well, it IS legal, and, more importantly, it is Constitutionally protected! We do NOT get to vote on what basic rights people should or shouldn't have!

"In a democracy people don't decide what they are going to force on the other people."

Of course they do...never heard of majority rule??

"Here's my definition of taxes:

Taxes - To compel a man to furnish contributions of money"

Wrong again...taxes are a contribution for the support of a govt. from persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that govt. in order to raise revenue for that govt., levied on the income or property of persons or organizations, on the production costs or sales prices of goods and services, etc..

In short, taxes are necessary for govt. to exist at all.

"We don't want our population to grow due to illegal immigration."

Ah ha! Who said anything about "illegal" immigration?? That's NOT what I was talking about at all.

"So..., why don't you take out your check book and write as much compasion as you can afford and show me a little compansion (not by giving me money but) by not taking my money away from me and giving it to a cause I don't believe in."

Because, simply put, that's NOT how our system of govt. works, period. One does NOT get to pick exactly how their tax dollars are used. We live in a representative democracy, NOT a direct one!

Once again, it's so "magnanimous" of you to sit in judgment of when people should have or not have sex...ugh...get over yourself... Once again, are YOU practicing what you preach??

Here's a novel FACT...unwanted pregnancies happen even WHEN couples have "protected sex". Accidents happen yanno...wake up...

"Take off those rose colored glasses of yours."

You first...oh thee that worships a dead old fool...

No, they really don't. My goodness...do you have ANY contact with real women??

"I do NOT want to pay for some bimbo girl to go get her 15th abortion!"

No one gets 15 abortions...that's a strawman argument. In fact, no one that I know of sets out to have "abortions on demand".

My goodness...I'm utterly amazed at the number of men out there that are so willing to decide how a woman should use HER OWN BODY! Would you like the reverse to be done to you??

"OK, I'll make an exception for rape and incest victims."

Wow, that's so "magnanimous" of you to sit in total judgment of when a woman can & can't exercise her Constitutional rights...ugh...

"Accidental pregnancies can be prevented. It's called abstinance."

And once again, it's so "magnanimous" of you to sit in ultimate judgment of when a person should or should not have sex. BTW, I hope you are practicing what you preach!

This is a stupid question. Is this how one accumulates points on here...by coming up with stupid questions to start a "debate"?

Wow, you need to be careful when you throw around derisive labels like that willy-nilly.

Is it in the country's best interest to have babies come into this world that won't be attended to properly?? I don't think so...

You can't be serious.

Look, incest happens...rape happens...accidental pregnancies happen (even when people take the necessary precautions!). To not acknowledge that is to deny reality.

"Well..., they can turn a few tricks to raise the money. I mean, it's not like they're going to get any more pregnant than they already are. Besides, they should have thought about that before spreading their legs. If they were willing to spread their legs once, what's a few more times in order to get the money they need."

Wow, you must be one of those "compassionate conservatives" that I keep hearing about...wow...

"I have freedom of speech. Will you pay for me to present my views or are you one of those hypocritical liberals?"

Excuse me? What the heck does that have to do with abortion?? Since when do you need the govt. to pay you to spout off??

I already responded there, and no I don't believe in Uncle Milty. :)

"Nationalized health care is not for the benefit of the U.S."

Well, that's NOT what's on the table here in the USA at all right now, but I would disagree with your premise none-the-less.

"And paying for abortions is definitely not for the benefit of the U.S. We need more natural born citizens than illegals."

You do know that one the main reasons that this country's population continues to grow is through immigration, don't you?? BTW, paying for abortions helps those low income women that can't afford to take advantage of their Constitutional rights.

"I which the federal government did only those things spelled out in the constitution"

Too vague an answer.

"One of them being to protect the borders."

I agree, and I even agree that we should build a fence down along our southern border...just to prove how stupid an idea that really is. Instead, what we should do is hire more well-trained Border Patrol guards, and try to help those south of our border have better lives through improved environmental & labor regulations in their own countries.

collective -

1. Assembled into or viewed as a whole.

2. Of, relating to, characteristic of, or made by a number of people acting as a group

3. forming a whole or aggregate

4. of, done by, or characteristic of individuals acting in cooperation

Yea, a collective, as in for the good of the many. Red Herrings are so 1980s of you...

"The words Government and Efficiancy don't belong in the same sentence together"

...in your own biased opinion that is.

Thanx for not answering my question.

I have no problem paying taxes, as long as they are as progressively-based as possible. It's silly to try & bleed a stone when there are plenty of fat, wealthy people around.

BTW, try out your "conservative" ideas in the real world sometime:

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/features/budget_hero/

http://www.nathannewman.org/nbs/

Hint: they don't work!

This is one of the main reasons that a whole lot of "conservatism" is selfish-based and based on the idea that human nature is "bad".

One of the tenets of Progressivism is to be as efficient as you can in govt. operations, and not needlessly waste govt. tax revenue...like on Wars of choice that were based on lies, tax cuts that go to the most wealthy people that don't really need them, etc., etc....

Uncle Milty, unfortunately wasn't right about very much by later in his career. The idea that a group of people, acting through their govt., can't be efficient with monetary expenses on behalf on the public is just silly.

Believe me, there are plenty of people in govt. right now that take very seriously how they spend the public's tax money.

What amount of govt. money should be "cut back" on?? You do realize that it's impossible at this point to balance the federal budget without raising taxes on someone, don't you??

"Women have the right to get an abortion"

...and if they can't pay for it, then what to they do to get their Constitutional rights??

Well, what happens when people start to have the option of opting out for paying for national "defense", the endless War on Drugs, prisons, etc., etc.??

Let's face it, abortions are totally legal medical procedures which women have a Constitutional right to, period!

This whole abortion issue is just a distraction from the main issue of health care reform. It doesn't amount to a roll of beans...

I don't think that any of them will be running for anything. Dobbs was, I guess, forced out from CNN recently because he was routinely spewing lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories. While the same could be said for Beck, Fox "News" doesn't seem to mind that much...lol...hmmmm, I wonder why??

Beck & Rush are great at what they do...stirring the pot & saying outrageous things. Rush is a college flunk-out, and Beck is a college drop-out. Both have had serious trouble with drug addictions, and both are serious hypocrites IMO on a variety of issues. Both are also most likely hard-core racists. These aren't the kind of people that you really would want running on your Party's ticket.

In all honesty, I used to watch Rush's TV show back in the 1990s pretty religiously. I even taped it when I had to go to bed to get to work early the next day. He was very entertaining, in kind of a buffoonish way. He seemed to like to glow in his pompacity (I loved when his library behind him on the show was filled with one book...his, and then when he changed it when he second book came out...lol), & to rail against the Clinton's, which I though was hilarious.

Is it really?? I don't think that there's any evidence to support that "argument", but oh well...