Iamdavidh's Waterfall
1. Greenland is not the globe.
2. The article says nothing about man-made global warming, not a word.
That Greenland had accelerated ice melt even above what has been caused by man-made global warming is the subject, the subject is not that global warming does not exist. The article does not make that claim.
It is proven, you are correct, and has been for nearly two decades now.
Joe gets these articles expecting no one will read the whole thing because he has some weird hard-on for all right-wing propaganda.
The article is about Greenland specifically, not the globe, and an unusual rate of ice melt in Greenland, even more ice melting than in other areas.
"The July 2012 event was triggered by an influx of unusually warm air, but that was only one factor," said study researcher Dave Turner, a physical scientist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's National Severe Storms Laboratory. "
That Greenland had accelerated ice melt even above what has been caused by man-made global warming is the subject, the subject is not that global warming does not exist. The article does not even make that claim.
Kotkin likes to distract people and play to class and other prejudices with inflammatory language about “hip and cool” places versus suburbs and young sophistos, trendoids, and gays versus real families.
As does Joe, it goes on...
It’s interesting, in that context, to note that his recent report on “post-familialism” was supported by the right-wing philanthropist Howard Ahmanson. Kotkin’s report credits Ahmanson as a “philanthropist”, but Salon dubs him “the avenging angel of the religious right,” a large funder of anti-gay and anti-evolution group and causes.
Basically it's an anti-gay anti social-evolution article. Downtown areas have been crumbling. Young creative types, some of whom happen to be gay and who at the very least don't hold these prejudices, have been revitalizing them. Joe, the religious right, and far right conservatives see GAY! and get scared and feel some sort of primitive need to discredit anything connected, whether it's based in reality or not.
But the fact is that these were areas which were dead, and now they are alive. They were areas which were draining their perspective cities, and now they are giving more than they take.
So now you want to exert you will on other nations. How liberal of you.
Fair trade is a liberal issue, true. Republicans tend to support exploiting humans in other countries for greater profits for global corporations. You are off subject of course, nice try though.
An impossible task because America is not the world. But local legislation can start without having a cause determined for the Earth being hotter
I was speaking specifically of the US, which I make clear. Why you would even try to twist that to mean world legislation I do not know, outside of desperation perhaps because you see how faulty your arguments are becoming. And I never said that the US (so you don't try to twist around my words again) could not have legislation without global warming being an issue, but global warming is an issue and there is no reason it should not be an issue.
What it sounds like is you object to being incorrect about global warming, or you object to others being incorrect about global warming, so you would like me to ignore it. You will notice the title of the debate is More proof Global Warming is a hoax however, so I will not ignore that as the primary issue here.
7 paragraphs and
I notice when someone is loosing a debate as you are, they begin taking snipits of what I say in order to better fit their own argument, which at this point is not even on topic in your case. 7 paragraphs, 4 paragraphs, the point is that the subject is global warming, and so the subject of my response was and is global warming. That there are other reasons besides global warming to pursue cleaner energy does not in any way detract from the validity of global warming as an issue.
This indicates that the first reasons you are about to list are not very important.
It certainly does not.
Unless of course it is your misinformation.
So you are going from agreeing that global warming is true, to now saying that it is not. This supports my point that information about it is important. It does not support your point.
The "global warming" deniers have their fingers in their ears and aren't listening. Your side has your fingers in your ears and isn't listening. Neither one of you deserves to be correct.
Again I'll point you to the title of this debate, and remind you that is the subject.
And being correct or not is not a matter of what one deserves, it is a matter of facts.
How about the fact that China causes massive amounts of greenhouse gasses to be produced meaning that the USA changing by itself would not fix a GLOBAL problem.
This is like "Hey, that guy killed someone so me not killing someone isn't going to stop all killings so I should keep killing people." You see how ridiculous the logic is right?
And it is not as if we are powerless in influencing China. Without the U.S. keeping in place, frankly, unfair trading deals, China is not a major economic power at all. Duties based on pollution produced by their manufacturers would quickly improve the the situation. We also have a lot of leverage to get most European countries on board in duties against China based on pollution. For all the of influence we say China has, if they can't sell crap for super cheap to nations like the U.S., they are in trouble.
Accepting that man made global warming exists is worthless. That is not a solution.
It is the first step toward a solution. You cannot push legislation to stop global warming when a large chunk of the country has been misinformed by the oil industry.
You have an entire paragraph on the reasons why the US should switch to clean energy and you skim over it like it is nothing. If you push the agenda that switching to clean energy helps NO MATTER WHAT you could get both sides to agree on something.
I framed my argument within the debate. The debate is on existence of it so I "skimmed' matters that did not pertain directly to existence. Though really a paragraph isn't skimming I don't think, when the entire reply is only like 4 paragraphs.
Instead people like you insist on making sure that silly people like Joe admit that global warming is true because you aren't really interested in solving the problem.
What about trying to convince "silly people like Joe" that global warming is real necessarily means one is not interested in solving global warming? You can both try to convince silly people it is real, and be interested in solving the problem. They are not mutually exclusive. It seems there would be a strong correlation in the exact opposite direction.
This issue is stupid, why is there fighting over what caused the Earth to be warmer? If pollution is bad let's cut our pollution. If clean energy will free us from oil nations let's move to clean energy. Why does the reason to do things have to be so complicated it is at the global level? Both sides are stupid on this issue.
It is precisely because many do not believe in the cause of global warming, that many are not interested in solving the problem. So, when more people are informed we are more likely to take real steps toward clean energy. It is necessary in a large representative republic that a large majority of people want something, especially if what they want means very powerful and influential entities would make a little less money.
Unfortunately 51% isn't even enough due to Congress' new habit of obstruction. So dispelling misinformation is an important part of that.
Greenhouses occur naturally from carbon, at the pace carbon naturally decomposes.
Greenhouses build up faster when we accelerate that process.
The article points out that if it should happen that we were in a warming cycle (which is not known and many believe we should be in a cooling cycle now) but even if we were in a warming cycle, and an extreme warming cycle, it does not come even close to the pace at which the earth is warming.
The article points out that natural causes for the pace of warmth have been eliminated. The only cause left is man-made.
The reason this is important, even outside of the facts that clean energy means more local jobs, less power in the hands of nations like Iran, and less expensive heating and cooling and driving, outside of those common sense things anyone should support less pollution whether they believe in science or think its the most elaborate and pointless hoax in history,
The speed of warmth shifts weather causing flooding in places that we humans are not prepared deal with, it causes droughts in areas where we humans grow our food, it means lost coastline where we humans build houses, and it means warmer oceans and bodies of water killing off species we depend on for food (or our food's food) because evolution of these species cannot adjust fast enough to survive the new temperatures.
So, really there's no reason to be a global warming denier, even for those who think science is evil or whatever.
Apparently not, since that is not what the article is implying at all.
Although the most recent decade (2000-2009) isn't the warmest of the Holocene, it's not too far off. The authors estimate that it was warmer than 82 percent of the decades of the last 12,000 years. "Global temperature, therefore, has risen from near the coldest to the warmest levels of the Holocene within the past century, reversing the long-term cooling trend," the authors conclude. And based on records of things like solar output, ocean currents, and volcanic eruptions, there's little indication of anything other than greenhouse gasses that could have caused this sort of reversal.
Given the greenhouse emissions we've already produced, the authors also conclude that we're certain to exceed the warmest decades of the past sometime this century. The only scenario that would keep us from doing so is if we froze emissions around a decade ago. The real question seems to be how much we'll exceed these temperatures by. Continuing along an emissions trajectory similar to the one we're currently on, they suggest, means "by 2100, global average temperatures will probably be five to 12 standard deviations above the Holocene temperature mean."
In other words, it will be dramatically warmer than any point of the entire 12,000 year interglacial period, and no amount of statistical noise could account for the difference.
The ability of Republicans to read something and think it means the very opposite of what is said is truly amazing.
Is it because Republicans are on average sever IQ points dumber? Or is it simply denial given your ideology's many self-contradictions?
Seriously. I'm curious how this happens so often with so many of you.
On the same trip, he also visited the Bronx in New York City, and during a speech delivered at a Bronx church on 17 September stated that, notwithstanding any grievances he may have with the Bush administration's foreign policy, he had "fallen in love with the soul of the people of the United States"
He was not and never was anti-US.
Conservative sites that you get your news from enjoyed demonizing him because he "preached for" (which is a good term for what he did), juggernauts like the U.S. taking a more active role in preventing world poverty and pollution.
He was also against governments enforcing pro-market policy, which your sources often like to call "socialist"
In reality though, not enforcing pro-market policy is closer to "free market" than anything supported by U.S. conservatives.
In his own country during his time as president more people learned to read, education improved, and poverty decreased.
Now, your sources call this socialism as well because he used government programs to accomplish this, and they note the drop in Venezuela's GDP as a result of said socialism. In reality though the Venezuela economy suffered no more or less then any "non-socialist" economy during the last years.
Was he a great president? Maybe not.
But the demonization of him by the right is completely unfounded.
It's thousands Joe, thousands of kids and tens of thousands of adults.
So yeah, got it, you and gun nuts would rather live in your fantasy land, even knowing (some part of your brain must know) that it is a complete fantasy. You continuing to live in your fantasy is more important than their lives.
I get that. But luckily you are a small selfish and delusional minority. I just want to make sure you are not yelling your psychosis into an echo chamber. Someone needs to argue with this moronic perspective of yours or some may mistake it for a legitimate position.
And there are many illegals who are not registered nor do they have drivers licenses nor insurance.
No, there are a few. Like maybe 1 car in 1,000. But if there were not laws concerning this it would be 1/2 or 3/5 without insurance, and the road would be more dangerous. Thus those laws save people. Again, for like the 5th time you've proven my point.
The point I am trying to make is that you are not entitled to be safe because life is inherently dangerous.
Typical entitled republican. And no, life is not "inherently" dangerous, and guns make life more dangerous, not less dangerous. For like the hundredth time it is a proven fact that if you have a gun you or someone in your house is more likely to accidentally shoot themselves than ever fend off an intruder. It's a poor reason to have a gun.
Besides, this debate is about how men like to watch a woman's butt shake when she fires an assault riffle ;)
No it isn't. You are saying that now because all of your reasons are obviously incorrect, and since there is no defense of your position you are trying to turn it into a joke so you don't have to think of all of the kids and innocent people who die every year because of your and others stubbornness, selfishness, and misinformation on this subject.
You need to register your car whether you killed someone with it or not. You also are not allowed to drive a tank whether you've killed someone with one or not. Ignoring that stopping killing before it happens is the point of this debate, you've not even properly addressed your own analogy.
Everything is up to interpretation by someone. You're a frightened person, and your fear extends to government, I understand that. I and most trust cops are going to do a better job of this than not though, and something is better than nothing. You disagree, you have a preconceived notion that all things government is inherently bad so me saying cops should be able to do more about domestic violence to you, would be like saying the sky is falling to a normal person not suffering from your odd phobia.
Your fear in my estimate though is not worth minimizing authorities ability to stop at least more domestic violence. I'd rather see a few anti-government psychos foaming at the mouth in fear than see hundreds of thousands of women subject to abuse we could otherwise stop.
So, you are all for "Get in better shape chick! I don't care if that guy beats the shit out of you and preys on you psychologically as well so you don't feel like you can escape."
At least you're consistently an asshole when it comes to whether or not society should help victims.
No. But I am willing to wear a seat belt, follow stop lights, renew my registration every year, etc. And if I don't pass a "background check" because of too many accidents, reckless driving, drunk driving, etc. the state has every right to take away my car. And I'm also not allowed to drive military vehicles like tanks.
So why are you not willing to do the same for guns?
Thanks for giving another great example of why you are wrong though.
Sure, you said that a bunch of times. You are changing your mind now because being a republican allows you a massive amount of inconsistency and hypocrisy.
You're also against gay marriage, which is penalizing a large group of people because of a few crazies.
However, that is a strawman. Background checks and limiting military arms in the hands of citizens is no more punishment than not letting people build biological weapons in their basement. It's the same argument. You either can't see that because you are too personally invested in your ridiculous ideology, or you are being purposefully obtuse for the sake of supporting an agenda you see as a father figure.
Well, unless it's something you don't want right?
I mean you have no probably telling others they cannot have an abortion right? No matter how much science says that thing aborted has no feelings or sense of self. Still, you feel righteous justification saying others need to feel your superstition deep in their heart and not abort.
However, take something you apparently like, high powered guns with shitloads of bullets. In this case we have proof they kill actual kids who are kids and not just your imagination.
Now though, now it's "How dare you tell me what to do with my body! It's not my problem kids are dying! My right to self is more important than kid's lives!"
But these kinds of guns are the easiest way. Other ways don't kill as many people.
And restricting guns isn't penalizing anyone. I believe that if having a certain type of gun is that fucking important to you, so much so that you are willing to see a few hundred extra kids die a year just so you can have that particular kind of gun, you probably are not the kind of person who should have any kind of gun at all.
Your position is immature. It's a child crying over a toy while other kids are dying. Get over it.
No I wouldn't.
Sure, a girl who is in amazing shape and trains a lot can "take down" a larger man who is utterly out of shape and never trains, a lot of the time, not every time maybe. She cannot take down a larger man who is just in okay shape though, not consistently anyway. I go to the gym almost every day and see girls on more roids with more vanes popping out of their arms than a WWF actor, and I see them max 185 on the bench. Then some chubby dude walks in who obviously hasn't done a situp in a decade do that same weight 10 times.
Simply saying "exercise harder girls, otherwise it's your own fault you get your ass beat" is not something I would be willing to do.
You see, the problem with this is, it is 100% up to interpretation.
No it isn't. There has to be physical signs of abuse as well as an initial call that there has been abuse. Even then the accused has a day in court.
One cop may see a man not holding the door open for their wife as abuse.
He could, but would be fired for wasting time and being an idiot. And charges would be dropped and probably metro sued.
this could all go the other way ex: a wife abusing their husband, a husband abusing their husband, a wife abusing their wife
Glad you brought that up. This is some of what the actual bill now addresses. As suspected Joe's description was completely false.
Its like probable cause for drugs. Some cops consider things like smell and red eyes to be probable cause for searching your property. Some cops consider having a t-shirt or bumper sticker for certain bands as probable cause for searching your property. Some cops are reasonable sane people, some are crazy and some are just assholes.
No it isn't. People are hurting others besides themselves where there is domestic violence. It is not the same at all.
Ah, as suspected Joe is being a right wing ass.
The bill is basically the same as previous bills but includes closing loopholes like allowing law enforcement to now arrest someone who goes to a reservation to beet up a chick, then leaving immune to punishment since due to jurisdiction issues includes measures to allow enforcement to stop domestic abuse in between gay couples. It's not any stricter or more vague, it just closes loopholes. If anything it is more specific.
As an engineer you are also apparently unable to make clear real life correlations.
Here l0l0l0l000l0l0l0lll000ll00l0ll00l00l00l
Basically, there is a correlation between bullet count and fire power and innocent death from accidents and psychos. Since those guns are not a necessity and there is this correlation, we should regulate them better. Luckily we don't have to guess. We know it works already. It's just a matter of doing it.
I never said there shouldn't be background checks as well, there should be those. There background checks are about as difficult to pass as getting into a house party.
You can't trust anything Joe describes. On a spin rating from 1-10 he's a 10 on the far far right.
I've no doubt he's completely misrepresented what the law actually says.
I think I made my actual stance on the subject fairly apparent in one of the replies here.
Stating that no one needs a magazine that can hold lots of bullets or a riffle that can spit out a lot of bullets in one minute is besides the point.
No it isn't. That's the exact point. You don't need them and you can't keep them out of the hands of psychos. So you shouldn't be allowed to have them. There aren't psychos stealing Lamborghinis and driving them into schools or buying Lamborghinis and driving them into schools. They are with assault rifles though.
Sure. That should be part of it.
And gun sellers should do background checks and when they don't and a crazy person buys a gun and kills people the seller should be an accessory to murder. You should also be allowed to sue the gun maker when this happens to you.
We won't do that though because along with a brainwashing campaign to make people like you think you're safer with a gun than without, even though every statistic says otherwise, they also have a money campaign where they pay lobbyists to make sure no measures that will save lives ever pass, because to that group you apparently worship since you spew off their points nearly word for word, cares a whole lot more about the money their guns make them then the lives their guns take.
Right. That or I'm simply making sure the small small minority of crazy gun nuts can't shout out the vast majority of sane people who know the difference between reality where you don't need 30 bullets and a semi-automatic for anything on earth and letting people buy them only leads to more dead people, and imagination where they think they need to defend from some black helicopters or whatever.
There's no reason for citizens to have those kinds of guns.
You have the right to defend yourself, with a normal gun. A normal gun works just as well.
And the point is they will be able to kill less people. If this guy could not have gotten his mom's arsenal he would have found a normal gun and killed 4 or 5 kids instead of 20.
You don't need those guns with all those bullets for anything, and restricting them saves lives. So too bad. Live without it. Quit being a baby.
The point is you can kill less people if you have less bullets and don't have an assault rifle or other high powered military gun.
You have no use for a shitload of bullets or a gun designed for a war zone.
Therefore there is no reason to have one.
Will crazy people kill people? Sure. But they will kill less people.
Why's this confusing to you?
Yeah, you can't arrest someone for saying stuff no matter how big a dick he is. It should be easier to arrest a husband or a boyfriend for physical abuse though, and to do so without the other's consent because long term abuse makes it too difficult for them to speak out against the person in question.
Nevada does a descent job, they could do better I'm sure but any sign of abuse and the officer can arrest the guy on the spot (or the girl for that matter) they don't need the word of the other person. If there is a domestic violence call even from a neighbor they don't need permission to enter, they can bust in like gangbusters. I like it. It probably saves a lot of lives. Those relationships usually end very tragically.
That's not really a fair assessment of the situation.
If for instance a 300lb lineman for a professional football team decided to abuse me, I for one would not be able to stop him with an arm lock regardless of the training I had. I could probably run from a 300 lb man, but what if I couldn't?
Usually these cases are something like this. Usually no amount of kung fu is going to allow her to overpower him and he's faster anyway.
That is not how these things work though. There's an element of psychological abuse that slowly over time takes the will to fight away. Over time it even convinces them that doing nothing is better than doing something, "because then he'll get really mad."
I'm 100% for very strict laws against this and giving law enforcement the ability to put more people who do this in jail. It's very hard to arrest a husband or a boyfriend in most states if when you get there the bleeding and crying women says "No, it's okay, it was my fault" which she almost always does, because of the psychological aspect of long term abuse.
I'm not for the ability to arrest based on words only though. It should be based on physical abuse, but it should be easier to arrest them based on this.
You are completely wrong and this has been proven a hundred times and all over the world and in every state.
There are 0 facts backing up this claim you are making. Only NRA flyers... you know the NRA's sole purpose for existence is to sell more guns right? They don't care how many kids die.
Anyway. That guy who killed all those kids could not have killed half as many if his mom did not have an arsenal of guns lying around. Maybe he would have killed some if there are no background checks (which there are not any real background checks and there should be along with an assault rifle ban) but that guy would have been able to kill far fewer kids.
That's a fact.
There is no way around that fact.
I realize you gun nuts have been brainwashed and this is like trying to explain to a cult member trying to catch a meteor that it isn't magic juice it's rat poison,
but whatever, just try really really hard to think logically.
Taking away assault rifles would and has decreased violence. We've seen this. We know it for a fact. You've no piece of evidence to prove otherwise. And since you still have every right to have a gun (though I'm beginning to think those so gun crazy, like yourself obviously, should not have any guns) your rights are not being "taken away."
It's a dumb argument. Like 85% of the country agrees. It's gun idiots and those getting rich from gun nuts (the nra and gun sellers), who care nothing that psychos are able to kill dozens of kids at a time instead of only 1 or 2 now, who think otherwise. Everyone else sees through you false patriotism and your empty and thoroughly disproven arguments.
Not even the NRA handbook has been able to twist the numbers to say this. Now you're just making stuff up. There may be equal amounts of crazy people attempting violence if mental issues are not also addressed, but they are unable to shoot a bunch of people, since they don't have access to a high powered gun with shitloads of bullets. Again, does your head hurt from this logic?
There are shootings all of the time in areas where having a gun is perfectly legal. Your theory this prevents violence is 100% incorrect, and frankly sounds like a child daydreaming about being a superhero.
The reality is that more powerful guns with more bullets for more people only leads to one thing, more dead people.
That is a fact.
All of your fanciful imagination doesn't change this.
Did you even read the article? It makes Republicans look like they are enslaving workers to create the death star.
I mean, they are dicks and completely bought off by special interest millionaires, I'm just surprised the article makes you so happy
...or did you only read the "Republicans are winning" part?
The sensationalism of the article aside, let's review what Republicans have won:
They lost the election and lost seats in the most powerful representative branch, the Senate,
They lost the popular vote for House seats and only still have the majority there due to a lack of tea party psychos up for re-election and electoral map gerrymandering.
They chickened out on the fiscal cliff because they knew democrats would then be able to come back with the tax adjustments they really wanted.
They didn't get to continue tax cuts for the richest of the rich, which was only ever their true concern.
They didn't get to starve kids who need food stamps and old people who need SS to live. I know that's going to keep them up at night. They hate those lazy kids and worthless old people.
They are less popular now than they were when Obama was elected the first time.
Yep, keep on winning republicans.
I would go bar hopping and collect free alcohol in a large container while handing out fake numbers and making sure my boobs slip out constantly.
Then to avoid highly emotional states that I find confusing and frankly frightening,
I'd wait until I again had a penis to enjoy all my free alcohol.
"Evil" is a human construct. Useful. But just something we made up.
When whales catch a seal, and they toss it about basically torturing it for what is often hours, that is not evil, it just is because they do not have the capacity to feel for that seal.
However, us having that capacity, most and hopefully all sane humans would agree that torturing a seal for hours even if the plan is to eventually eat it, is "evil."
If there were an all powerful god, and if given that our capacity to understand the concept of evil is more complex than say a whale's, this means that like us to the whale, a god would have a completely different concept of this idea.
How very human our perception of what is evil is, more points to it being solely human. If there were some god to determine the nature of this phenomenon to us, it would seem alien to our small brains.
So no. It if anything strengthens the argument against any deity.
I actually agree with the general premise of much of the link, surprisingly.
But I see no evidence that those numbers in my links have been skewed, nor reason why they would be. The position that all government is always lying is ludicrous. Government is complex, and ours is made up of people. I should think it would "lie" no more or less then a corporation, a business, or a person. Some things they lie about some things they do not.
Independent studies seem reliable to me. The amount our healthcare costs compared to countries with universal healthcare would be impossible to fake on such a scale. The health of the population of those countries compared to ours would be impossible to fake.
